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General Forum Thought Experiment    jdownie   9/3/2014 Here is a quick question (which I can't answer since Creatures won't run on my machine). If you had two genetic breeds, where one got fear from going down and comfort from going up and the other got comfort from going down and fear from going up, if you put them in a multi-level environment (anywhere with lifts), how quickly would the two breeds split up and only mate with their own kind? Anyone want to give it a try? Might be worth starting from chichi-based breeds like the ones that were given away ages ago: fallows, zebras and the like, so you can tell which is which.   Peppery One Papriko   9/3/2014 Depends how clever they are, how well they can deal with their drives and how far they realize that going up or down helps. Also, it always could be that you get kinda schizophrenic creatures from a quicky in the lift, who are scared or comforted in both situations. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...   SpaceShipRat   9/3/2014  1 Aqua norns have a strong instinct to stay on lower levels. if there's a breed who likes the treetops, we could try that out. I think it would depend on food sources. if there's food only on a middle level, they'd go to it and interbreed, otherwise, they would probably get separated within the one generation.   Malkin Manager     9/3/2014 Gargoyles like heights. My TCR Norns   SpaceShipRat   9/3/2014  1 Set this up: locked Norn Terrarium, no grendels and ettins, a set of 3 females and 2 males of Aqua and Gargoyle norns. Currently, it's the worst elevator fest I've ever seen, pretty much two mixed groups of babies being very much stuck in the 2 elevators We'll see when they start getting hungry. Two questions: is there a CFE version of Gargoyles? Because there's one of Aqua norns, and it would be interesting to see if there's a difference when using CFE genomes. And, is there a C3 lift fix that will work in c3/ds?   Peppery One Papriko   9/3/2014 There is a "minor fixes" download for C3 on Creatures Heaven which mentions lifts. Maybe that does the trick? Alternatively you could try it in the DS Meso? Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...   SpaceShipRat   9/3/2014 After 4 hours of relative time, Most everyone is dead, apart from a gen 1 female, and a couple of newborn gen 4 twins. Looking back through the generations, only one gargoyle female reproduced three times, one son survived, had a daughter, who had the twins. And that was it. There didn't seem to be any preference for one or the other breed, but most reproduction seemed to happen in norns who'd managed to just step out of the elevator for a few moments. I'll try again in the meso. But I really would love to see a CFE version of Gargoyles, they're one of my all time favourite reeds.   Peppery One Papriko   9/3/2014 As far as I know, gargoyles live longer than other creatures. To balance that out, they are less likely to mate. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...   jdownie   9/3/2014 Hmm. SpaceShipRat, I didn't see that coming. Apart from the instincts for or against heights, what other genetic differences are there? My thought was that, if the species were otherwise identical, then you should get naturally selective breeding but maybe "quickies in the lifts" are all you'll get. Mind you, I did wonder if, even with them, the chances of a crossover point at precisely the spot between the two new genes would be minimal but then, maybe I am naive about that.   Senior Wrangler Nutter   9/3/2014 Might be worth swapping elevators for elevines, to make the transport instantaneous?   SpaceShipRat   9/4/2014  1 Set it up in a locked Meso with the same 5 and 5 groups, and a few extra rubber balls. The food distribution in the Meso is better than in the NT, where there's no food sources on the lowest floor except the cheese dispenser, so I'm hoping they'll manage to start a stable population. The two groups have segregated already, except for an adventurous Gargole female on the lowest floor. Oddly, the gargoyles are all feeding themselves nicely, while the Aqua norns are huddling below the elevator and look very hungry. From what I remember using Aquas a long time ago, they still feel the bottom of the meso is too high up, and will obsess about getting lower. Edit 1 hr in: Aquas slowly starving, they eat alright, but seem unwilling to move upwards to reach food. 1 gargoyle, 3 aqua purebred babies born, and 2 hybrid babies born to gargoyle females on the low floor. Only the gargoyle females went to the heating pad to lay. All hybrids headed down. All the first gen aquas are dead now that the babies who still have legs can outrun them to the few seeds that drop on the lower floor.   Peppery One Papriko   9/4/2014 I think a part of the aqua norn diet involves critters. Have you ever looked at NG4? It is almost overloaded with fish. I guess some kind of edible critters may solve parts of the starvation problem. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...   jdownie   9/4/2014 More and more curious. It still seems that other instincts are taking over from the up/down ones. I am wondering whether this is or isn't an indicator that directional genetics (up/down or hot/cold) would be enough to get breeds to self-segregate.   SpaceShipRat   9/4/2014 5 hours in there's Gargoyles everywhere, and few Aqua traits scattered around, with two or three mostly aqua individuals still huddling sadly to the bottom right of the elevator. I have the feeling that that's pretty much all we'll see with non identical species, whichever can survive better will just take over. I should try with a lower population limit so they can't overpopulate and take over the whole terrarium regardless (but it's hard to sustain a population then, nevermind two separate ones, it's more up to chance than anything.) About critters, would bugs do? I can only think of those three sets of butterflies for something that automatically keeps the population restocked. Not sure where to go now, I want to try the elevines, but where? Propose some scenaros   KittyTikara     9/4/2014  1 If you want to test them in a different metaroom, the Biodome might be a good choice, it's one of the taller rooms. I don't think the bugs will do, unfortunately. The instincts for eating bugs and critters are separate, if I remember correctly. A good critter to choose would be the baloon pigeons. They almost never die out, and it's fun to watch them float around. The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog   Peppery One Papriko   9/4/2014 No, I don't think bugs would do. "Bug" is a different class than "critter". Aquanorns are supposed to live off fish, which definitely is not "bug". Also, could it be that they do not feel "down enough" because they don't end up in water? They go down because usually water is at the bottom. The DS Meso is all air, though (unless using the meso flooder). Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...   jdownie   9/4/2014 Wow. This is getting more complex than I thought. I had envisioned just adding a couple of genes to a couple of different chichi clone breeds, like zebras or fallows. Interesting though that we can't seem to split breed specific traits from these instincts. SpaceShipRat, do you reckon the Aqua traits are due to chance meetings in the lifts?   SpaceShipRat   9/4/2014 @Papriko I doubt it's because there's no water, norns can't tell water from air at all, afaik. Maybe there's some sort of "absolute" floor value, and the Meso starts from, say floor 1 instead of floor 0? @Jdownie The hybrids happened due mostly to two gargoyle females who went foraging for carrots on the lower floor. They were willing to go down for food, while aquas would not go up for any reason. Next try will see elevines, the Biodome, and those pigeons then. I haven't played with the Biodome before, I'm curious! (It doesn't have CA distribution problems I suppose, Liam is generally good on that.)   Peppery One Papriko   9/4/2014 They can, kind of. It uses a similar mechanic to drowning. When they are in air, the chemicals released into the bloodstream are slightly different than in water. Based on those chemicals, you can make your creature react differently, essentially detecting water. If I recall right, Aquanorns are able to breathe air, but breathe better under water. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...   Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager     9/4/2014 It's sort of like that. The way the aquanorns work is that they have an emitter much like the ones for Air that emit down drive whenever they're above water. This is why they always want to go down when not in water. As navigational drives suppress all other drives when present (at least in children and older creatures), it might explain why the aquanorns didn't take good care of themselves if there wasn't any water to put them in. ~ The Realm ~ Risen Angel's Creatures Blog   SpaceShipRat   9/4/2014 Well then, what about Bug's Temple? Lots of levels and water on the bottom. But is the CA set up well for that? can they smell stuff on different floors?   KittyTikara     9/4/2014 Bug's temple doesn't have any ca links, so not really? This agent here will let you set up a metaroom any way you want to though. So you could add water or see if a room has cas or not. the Biodome does have water on the lowest levels, but it doesn't have ca links. The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog   SpaceShipRat   9/5/2014 Oh... that looks like a bit of a task I could try the Meso flooder, and use that tool to check if the CAs are still linked. But I think I have to shelve this for the next couple weeks. If anyone else wants to try, it would be interesting We need more of this sort of behavioral experiments.   c1anddsaddict   9/10/2014 I might have to try this one out DS village My TCR norns STAY AWAY FROM THE MOLDY, DISEASED CHICKEN NUGGET STASH!!!

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