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Maternal instincts   
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter
United Kingdom  


  2/11/2014

This occurred to me thinking about Feddlefew's poll on IQ testing. Do female norns have any kind of instincts around egg-laying, other than to return to the norn home? I've noticed that not all my norns seem to have that instinct - some will say "push norn home" (or whatever) but make no attempt to go there, and some always just lay eggs wherever they are at the time.

But it occurred to me that it might be possible to add instincts for, say, heading to a place with high protein smell, or a mixture of smells, when pregnant so the egg is laid near a food source; or even to be more sensitive to crowding, so the effect is to leave other norns and seek out somewhere secluded to lay an egg.

Does anyone know if this has been attempted for any breeds? I seem to remember reading up about one breed (some kind of shadow norn?) that would tend to hide its eggs, but I don't know if that was artistic license on the part of the breeder!

 
FlyingEttiNorn

FlyingEttiNorn



  2/11/2014

this reminds me of the time i had a butterfly norn that was so slap-happy she killed one of my neko ettins and i had to put her baby on the lower floor of the norn meso so she didn't kill it...
if only norns could recognize their kids!
(i have had similar problems with ettins, although no death was involved... why are they so slap-happy?!)

 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter



  2/11/2014

I thought norns could recognise their offspring? They certainly could in C1, though by default they didn't have any instincts that took advantage of the ability.
 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko



  2/11/2014

Well, Vampess made the family CFE which do not mate with blood relatives of any kind. I don't know if she used some fancy senses which are integrated in the engine or if she simply saves all closer relatives in variables.

In your case you should hope that it is engine trickery, though. Making the intercourse fail with just a few variables is one thing, but using them to completely change the behavior only towards a few chosen creatures a different one.


Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
ylukyun
Patient Pirate

ylukyun

Manager



  2/11/2014

There are "slave" creatures that will supposedly pick up food and drop it near a member of the "master" species. If this really works (I've never used these breeds, so I don't know) perhaps it could be done with parents and children.

Pretty sure the Family Norns work on a genetic basis.

 
Papriko
Peppery One

Papriko



  2/11/2014

Oh, just decompiled them. They really seem to be 100% genetic. No script files at all. Now is just the question: do they work on a side effect of the "basic" CFE upgrade code or do they also work in vanilla?

Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...
 
InsanityPrelude
For Science!

InsanityPrelude



  2/11/2014

CFE Family adds another brain lobe, if I remember correctly. It doesn't say anything about requiring Vampess's breeding scripts, so I'd assume it works in vanilla.


It's possible to rig emitters that trigger based on the presence of close relatives, I know that much. (This was how I learned that all first-generation Norns view each other as siblings...)

 
Jessica

Jessica


 visit Jessica's website: Discover Albia
  2/11/2014

I never looked into them more than finding out the basics to post the breed, but the Hive Mind Ettins might offer some other ideas on how to accomplish maternal instincts. Or maybe something similar? This is likely a breed Ylukyun mentioned above, but I figured I would post an example in case anyone wanted to take a look!

Discover Albia

 
ylukyun
Patient Pirate

ylukyun

Manager



  2/11/2014

The Hive Mind Ettins are a little different to what I was thinking. Very interesting though!
 
Linda

Linda


 visit Linda's website: My game projects on Itch
  2/13/2014  1

If somebody is interested: Amaikokonut has explained the way in which the CFE family norns work in a blog post.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  2/20/2014

Very interesting... I was wondering how to do something like that.

Hmm looking at those, it looks like one could also use those to make, for example, an abusive parent norn that has a preference for hitting its children over other norns.

Have the hitting related to normal anger/crowding since you would want it to stop eventually, not beat them to death... This would quickly end up making children want to avoid their parents and run away, adding extra drive in your norns to move away from their parents and spread their population out more.

You could even moderate this behavior by making the norns not get angry or crowded as easily normally, so they won't do this when you don't want them to; then, add a gene to give it anger when it has alcohol in its system, so you could use alcohol as the stimulus to make them chase the kids away...

This way you'd have a norn who's nice most of the time, but when it gets drunk, it gets mean and then comes home and starts beating on its family. Since norns tend to express when they are angry, these norns would also be mouthing off and yelling at their kids a lot when they get drunk...


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter



  2/20/2014

Sounds like... Moorhens, was it? They have large broods, and the parents pick on one of the offspring until it stops begging for food and dies. They then start on another one. This goes on until the babies are old enough to feed themselves. No one knows why, but I suppose it keeps the population down.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  2/20/2014

Nutter wrote:
Sounds like... Moorhens, was it? They have large broods, and the parents pick on one of the offspring until it stops begging for food and dies. They then start on another one. This goes on until the babies are old enough to feed themselves. No one knows why, but I suppose it keeps the population down.



What version creatures is that? I'm mostly familiar with C3/DS norns, but I know that many breeds of norns, including all of the base c3/ds breeds, mall breeds, and many based off of those, get a 'crowded' increase just from hearing another norn speak (I'm not sure what version they originally put that feature in the game though)... If the babies were expressing a lot asking for food, combined with there being large brood of them around, it would probably tend to make the parents quite stressed and slap-happy, especially whenever they are right next to a baby that is talking.

If the parents were feeling that crowded, that baby being quiet and not approaching them would be pretty relieving to them... After they found out that hitting the noisy ones worked to shut them up and lower the crowded feelings (the babies would quickly learn to associate expressing with the pain and punishment of being slapped, possibly even get an aversion to thinking about food, and of course were REALLY quiet once they were dead...), the parents were probably associating the natural reward from lowering their drives with hitting the nearest norn that wasn't being quiet, which would lead to the behavior you described.

Going into their genome and getting rid of the gene that gives them an increase in 'crowded' from hearing another creature speak (or maybe it's hearing another norn speak, I can't remember which offhand) would probably help stop that issue... they still would probably get somewhat slap-happy and stressed if there are a whole lot around, but they wouldn't feel quite as bad, and they would probably feel better just trying to spread out, rather than wanting to beat any crying norns just to shut them up.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
FlyingEttiNorn

FlyingEttiNorn



  2/20/2014

i think she's talking about a real life bird. :o
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  2/21/2014

FlyingEttiNorn wrote:
i think she's talking about a real life bird. :o



Oh, lol... Well, similar principles probably apply... overcrowding leading to them dealing with the issue themselves... they probably lay an abundance of eggs in case of predators or other unforeseeable issues that might kill too many off naturally, and then they deal that way with the 'extras' that would end up being too much of a burden on the population after that. They may even be weeding out genetically weaker or less fit individuals following some criteria, enhancing their natural selection. Though I doubt they beat their kids just because they are mean drunks, or with the purpose of just making the young move away from the parents, like the norns I mentioned.

As for the original poster's question, making pregnant norns use different criteria for egg-laying areas is is definitely do-able, and I'm pretty sure I've seen a few breeds who do it, although, without some careful setup of the world, getting a mother to deliberately pick any place with a COMBINATION of different smells or stimuli would be pretty hard, since their brains can only notice or react to one particular thing at a time and stronger stimuli always totally mask weaker ones.

If they had genes to approach warmth and to move towards food, they would not follow both equally, they would only pay attention to whichever happens to be more noticeable wherever they happen to be at any time and pick only that to pay attention to, totally ignoring the other. Even if there are places with more of both things in easy reach, they will always only go for whichever stimulus is strongest at the place they happen to be.

For example, if a norn with both genes is an equal distance from 2 spots, one with 15 warmth and 0 food smell, and the other place with 14 warmth and 14 food smell, they will go towards the spot with 15 warmth and no food every time.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter



  2/21/2014

Yes, moorhens are real birds. :)

It's interesting about the response to stimuli in C3DS - I didn't know that. Is it completely divorced from their drives though? If there's a slight food smell in one direction but a big hot smell in another, does choice in part depend on if the norn is hungry or cold? I only ask because I've had pregnant females trek all the way back to the meso from Veridia, following home smell which must've been pretty faint there.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  2/21/2014

Yes, drives would take a part... If she became hungry it would tend to make food smell more interesting and more stimulating to her so that it eventually takes over her attention (assuming she associates food smell with lowering hunger, which she should if she survived long enough to reproduce). Once she was hungry enough, her attention would shift to the strongest food smell she can find, even if it's fainter than the warmth smell or even in the total opposite direction from any warmth, since she would only be thinking about looking for food at that point... While her attention is on food smell, warmth (or lack of it) would be totally disregarded, until circumstances made warmth more important to her again (like her coldness drive getting higher than her hunger drive, eating so her hunger is no longer an issue, or being told to approach hot).

So, if they follow smell (and oddly enough, heat is treated as a smell), it will always only be one smell at any given time, never two or more, and furthermore, that smell will only be noticed in whatever direction it happens to be coming from strongest in relation to wherever the norn is right then. Same goes for drives... if they think about a drive, it will always only be one at a time. They don't have a concept of being cold AND hungry, and will never base any decisions on having both drives at the same time; they can only think about one or the other drive at any particular moment, and hopefully do something to lower it.

So, this norn might start out moving in the warmest direction at first just because she smells warmth more than food, then towards the most noticeable food from the spot where she gets hungry, then after she eats, go towards the warmth that is most noticeable from where she ate (which could even be the other way from the first warmth she detected), and so on... Ultimately, whether or not she makes it to an area that is close to both would really depend on how stuff is distributed around and what is most stimulating to her at any moment on her journey.

And about smells... smell really travels far, in fact I don't think it actually ever stops as long as there are proper passages for it to travel, just sort of decays logarithmically, getting fainter as you get farther from the source, and creature senses are keen enough to notice even the smallest traces if they are looking for them. I recently saw a really good article on how smells (or rather, Cellular Automata, which is the technical term) work, that had a cool illustration showing how a smell travels from the top of the norn terrarium all the way to the bottom room in the Capillata. Here's the link:

Naturing :: Nurturing: CAs and You




"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  2/22/2014

I don't know that norns really use heat smell at all - it doesn't impact on their drives.

My TCR Norns
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  2/23/2014

I was talking theoretically about a norn that was given genes to seek out heat and food when pregnant as an attempt to make them give birth in a warm place that also has a lot of food, as an example.

Since many pregnant norns get a huge boost in the homesick (comfort) drive, one simple way to attract them to heat would just be to add a gene that makes heat smell reduce homesickness... (or just replace 'norn home' smell with heat smell in the homesickness reduction gene norns already have...)

But my example could just as easily be about norn smell, or anything else, my point was that a norn will only pay attention to one drive or stimulus source at a time. It's impossible to get them to really take 2 or more things into account at the same time, and they also won't notice weaker sources of a stimulus if they are paying attention to that stimulus. If they are looking for food, they will pay attention to whatever food is most noticeable, and not take anything else into account like, for example, if there is something else closer to some less noticeable food that might also reduce a different drive.

As another example, let's say you made one want to look for food AND avoid other norns while pregnant, to find a good secluded area with a lot of food to give birth... Let's say instead of changing the smell that reduces homesickness, you just made its 'crowded' and 'hungry' go way up when pregnant instead... it would just go towards the most noticeable food source when looking for food, and not care at the time if there are 50 norns near that food source, or care that there is an area that has a little less food but no norns at all in the other direction.

A norn's actions are all about the one thing that norn happens to be paying attention to at that moment, which is always whatever is most stimulating or interesting to that norn right then. The most likely outcome in this particular case is the mother goes to the closest area with food regardless of any other norns around it, then starts smacking everybody that comes near her... she would almost certainly never bring herself to move away from that area to make it to a less obvious source of food that happens to be more secluded, since she would be constantly ravenous and keep wanting to go back to the food source she is most aware of.

You are right though, I don't see anything about heat smell in c3/ds norns genes (in a civet norn's genome anyway), other than a half-life for it. It would probably be easy enough to add genes that make the amount of heat smell affect the coldness and hotness drives, though. In c1 I noticed my norns occasionally paying attention to the stove and trying to move towards it long after they left that area, even though they had no previous interactions with the stove, so I think it's possible they may have been cold and seeking out warmth, or if not, at least noticing the warmth as a source of stimulus that was interesting to them at that moment.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  3/3/2014

Haha, I just noticed something in my new world, where I put only CFE norns (I just got them and I love them, they definitely do seem a lot smarter than the regular ones)... Anyway, people might know this, but I just realized it, and think it's cool... norns seem to be able to hear that noise eggs make when hatching.

I noticed it when one of my CFE norn children in my new world looked at and walked up to a bunch of eggs that I popped in from the Muco egg layer a few minutes before which were starting to hatch one by one.. when the first one started cracking, she turned right around and looked at it, then went all the way over there... then as each one started to hatch, she would walk right up to it, pick it up, and start walking around with it... it looked like she was shaking it until it hatched, then she'd drop the shell and wait for the next one...

She kept walking right up to them as soon as the cracking sound started, and not before, then pick them up and give them a shake (maybe she was dancing while holding it?) Still, it was funny, I never saw a norn so interested in hatching eggs before (making them is another story).


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter



  3/3/2014

That's interesting - I've noticed norns picking up eggs before, and (with the simple objects hit script and interactive egg scripts installed) will hit and even break them; but I had the impression that it was co-incidental. I'll have to keep an eye open for that behaviour next time there are any hatching eggs around.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  3/3/2014

Yeah this definitely didn't seem coincidental, when a new one started cracking she'd look right at it, drop the shell she was holding, and go up to the new one and pick it right up. there were around 6 eggs there altogether, and she did it for all of them... it would be a pretty unlikely coincidence for her to pick the right one each time.

I have noticed them to be a little interested in eggs too, but never specifically while they are hatching... maybe she just was thinking about doing something with eggs, since there wasn't anything else right in the area... and the one she was holding kept disappearing so she kept going to another one... but I think it's interesting it was always the next hatching one, and she didn't seem to get very distracted by the babies as far as I could see...

I know they do have a sense of hearing sounds in game (besides just words) because there are neurons for 'audible event' in the 'situation' sensory lobe, but i really just thought that was for the musical kind of toys and noisy gadgets, to make them more stimulating.

This seems to be evidence that eggs cracking sound (or maybe the shaking) does register for them too though... it could have got her attention or at least made the hatching egg the most interesting one around when she decided for whatever reason to 'get egg'... she was still pretty young and probably prone to trying random stuff with anything around her... but either way, I thought it was interesting (and incredibly cute...)


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Nutter
Senior Wrangler

Nutter



  4/25/2014

Do norns have any stimulus or anything related to Creature Egg, though? I know the grendels are supposed to, it's what drives them to steal norn eggs (not that I've ever seen that actually happen).
 
Feddlefew

Feddlefew



  4/25/2014

Gizmo-based norns will pick up and move eggs to the norn home after they're layed.
 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  4/26/2014

In the standard norn genome, they have a decent reduction in boredom from picking eggs up, but no instinct to do it... This should mean that if a norn randomly decides to pick up an egg (not too common, but could easily happen with a lot of eggs around a bored norn) they will find it interesting, and it may develop into a habit. The gizmo norns also get a very large increase in homesickness when they pick up eggs, making them want to take them to the incubator.

Grendels get a VERY large reduction in boredom, and a very large increase in homesickness, and a reduction in coldness from getting eggs... Grendels also have a strong instinct that getting eggs reduces boredom.

Those family norns are interesting, they use the fact that creatures CAN actually distinguish family members (it's unused in the standard genome for some reason, though the game engine *may* make some use of it). Neurons in their situation lobes register a creature they are looking at as a sibling, child, or parent, and the family norns have emitters that produce libido lowerer when that happens (basically any time a family member catches their attention, an emitter will trigger and make them a lot less interested in mating). You should be able to get other effects based on family relationships by looking at that genome and using genes linked to those neurons in a similar way.

From experimenting with my speech edits, it seems that norns start out liking family members a little more, or at least possibly want to pay attention to and answer them more for some reason. I had two of my norns who mated but never gave each other advice when they complained, but as soon as their baby came up and started complaining to them, they gave it advice.

The hive mind ettins work differently though, they have an agent that gives them suggestions and possibly rewards them for certain behaviors. I'm not sure if they also use those neurons in the situation lobe or not, but probably not.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 


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