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 Malkin   Manager  |
Given the news that 'button' and 'elevator' have been depreciated in C4, I was wondering: What categories would you add to the classification system, if you could? I would want to add a 'bad seed' ('spore'?) category to be a companion to weeds and manky. I'd also like to bring back the 'music' category from C1. My TCR Norns |
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 Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
Bring back drink for water coffee juice etc. but leave potion for remedies. Add more creature categories (the user can name them.) Different categories of egg for different creatures and critters - norn grendel ettin whatever geat badcritter bug critter badbug. Vendors for different types of object - push this when hungry for fat, or this when starch.I also agree with badseed and music. In the most ideal situation, however, the categories wouldn't have names, as creatures can learn names of individual objects. Surely a pipe dream but I know it's what everyone's wanted for years. |
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 Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
Agreed! If I could completely revamp the category system, I would have used combinations of attributes, rather than "categories". Like colors, tastes, smells, textures, etc. A Norn might learn that sour red fruits taste good, and become attracted to sour things and red things; then they might go on to learn that bouncy red toys are fun to play with, but sour, stinky manky is bad, and so on. Add instincts to the mix and you could end up with Norns that hate anything black, are afraid of yellow, really like the color green, etc.  |
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 Ettina |
The category/features idea wouls be awesome, but also extremely difficult to code. Ah, well, maybe someday. I'd like to see more types of eatables, with different nutritional value, kind of like the 5 food groups (6 if you count junk food!). I'd also like some kind of division of machinery/gadgets so norns have at least some idea of what it can do. At the very least pushable and non-pushable - it bugs me that the very pushable and fun teaching machine has the same classification as the boring non-pushable portal maker. Some thoughts on categories might be weapons (sludge gun), detectors, teaching machines, and maybe some other categories. Oh, and have some empty slots of objects norns can perceive, but which aren't actually present in the world. That way people could make stuff to use those slots and norns can interact with it completely differently from how they relate to anything else. Another thought - how many other people have trouble remembering whether you push or pull elevators to go up/down? Why not have 'up' and 'down' as actions that can only be done to elevators and other things that move vertically? (I may see if I can make a creature similar to the C1 eat norns like this. That is, if I get the energy and can figure out how.) By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do. |
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Malkin Manager |
So, having 'grain' - starch 'fruit' - vitamins etc. 'milk' - calcium, fat, some vitamins. 'meat' - protein and 'junk' - highly pleasurable food? Maybe some kind of dummy 'scenery' or 'something' class for objects a norn can see, but isn't supposed to be able to interact with at all? My TCR Norns |
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 Moe |
Technically you CAN add categories to the engine as it exists. I did it a while back just to see if I could, and basically it just requires a genome of a norn with a brain capable of "seeing" objects of the new category, and a small tweak to the list of categories. It's not like it's it's hard coded or anything, but it's not easy (at least not from what I recall as a 15yo lad), but obviously it wouldn't be very "backwards compatible" with norns that don't have the updated genome, so I deemed it useless and moved on with my life. lol |
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Malkin Manager |
Yeah, this is just a bit of fun, really - what categories would you wishlist? Terra Nornia had new categories as well, which regular norns seemed to cope with ok. My TCR Norns |
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 Amaikokonut |
Moe -- So you've actually created a creature capable of seeing new categories? I haven't touched it in a while but I recall any attempts in the past to add neurons to the brain to account for this seemed to end up brain-dead (kind of child-of-the-mind-esque, they would only focus on one thing). Not sure if I just screwed up somewhere or if there's more to it. I'd love to see an example of how you got it working and what changes exactly need to be made to the brain. As far as categories go, Personally, I'm of the belief that categories exist for the sake of the creature, and if the creature can't interact with a certain agent in any way, there's no need for it to be in a visible category. I actually think a few categories could be done away with/consolidated. Drink as a category has been mentioned, I really miss that from C2. I also second Ettina's logic-- that the actions creatures can perform on a category really needs to stay consistent, as should the rewards. I would like if there was a separation between edible critters and pet/playful critters, (or at the very least all critters were made edible in some way so it doesn't confuse the creature). But that is another topic, I guess. I think it would be neat if there were more categories of toys (and more associated drives). "Bored" is about as much of a blanket drive as "Hungry" and just because someone is bored doesn't mean they want to play with a football and read a book equally. So for example, a creature might feel "creative" or "constructive" and want to push "crafts" (or some better name) a category that includes various art supplies, paints, molding clay, maybe building blocks, sewing supplies etc. (Plus I always thought it would be fun to have a set of "crafting" agents that would sort of evolve as creatures pushed them, and you could have little crafts and things that your creature "made" to keep around as mementos, but I am tangenting like crazy again) Feeling "restless" (a drive that may tie in with a low tiredness/sleepy drive) would prompt creatures to play with action-oriented toys, balls and cars and things they have to chase. No idea what this category would be called. Similarly, a creature might feel "curious" which would prompt them to push "media" like books and other things. I dunno, I'm just spouting stuff off the top of my head.  [Naturing :: Nurturing] |
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Moe |
Amaikokonut - Yes, it was extremely tedious and ended miserably for a half-dozen Norns. It was a long time ago and I don't have the gene file anymore, nor do I recall how to do it exactly, but it requires expanding several lobes just enough to account for the new neurons(nouns) and their paths/connections through the brain. If all the lobes aren't adjusted equally it doesn't work. The brain misfires horrifically, as I'm sure you've seen if you've tried--brain dead norns indeed.  I felt bad performing the experiments! lol!EDIT: Restarted the experiments with good results.  Expanding the noun, vision, move, stim source, combination, and attention lobes from 40 to 41, yielded a norn capable to interacting with a new category, so long as the Docking Station catalogue was updated to accommodate it. My norn can now interact with a category lovingly named "dog". |
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Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
Amaikokonut, you read my mind with the crafting thing.  I actually have an art easel model I made in Blender where I was planning to let Norns "paint" pictures. I even had it all worked out how Norns could get "better" the more they played with it, so their art would improve. |
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Amaikokonut |
That is strange, Moe. Maybe I'll mess with it later and see if I can duplicate it and figure out what's going on. The brain is such a mystery to me, though I will take most any opportunity to figure it out further. I just wish the vat kit actually connected to the game properly, it would help a lot ]: Ghosthande, that sounds really cute! Do you still plan on finishing it? Will we be able to stick the finished paintings on the C1 fridge?  [Naturing :: Nurturing] |
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Moe |
Your brain in a vat doesn't connect? Mine works. Are you using Exodus or regular DS? |
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Amaikokonut |
Does it really? ]: Jealous! I've never been able to get mine to work, using any version of C3 or DS (I have agonized over this for quite some time), and you're the first person I've actually seen it works for, now that I think of it. It will technically connect, and I can see the names of the creatures in the menu, but then when I go to select a creature I always get an "abnormal program termination" runtime error. I'm on windows 7, but I've been fighting with it since XP. After asking around I just assumed it didn't work for anyone, since most people I asked had the same problem. If it works for you though, maybe there is hope? On the topic of categories though; I find it odd and a little silly that "manky" has its own category, despite having very little presence in C3/DS, and yet there is no "drink" category! I also don't see "leaf" used very often. [Naturing :: Nurturing] |
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Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
Actually the paintings were going to come with picture frames. The C1 fridge is so tiny you wouldn't be able to see anything that was stick-able. I might release it still, I dunno.There's no "drink" category because Norns in C3/DS don't need to drink anything. Which kind of bugs me, because I really appreciated it in C2. And a lot of plants don't have leaves because creators like to cheat.  |
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Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
As far as I can recall, some Creatures are genetically primed to eat leaves, so it's just an extra food source. Probably no more consistently edible than bugs or critters. Amaikokonut wrote: Something like the universal hit script? There is also the Eat Meat COB for C2, I don't know exactly how this works. |
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Ettina |
My Brain in a Vat kit connects, pauses the game, and refuses to unpause. I have to disconnect to unpause my game. I thought I was supposed to be able to watch the brain in action? Plus I find it extremely hard to figure out what's going on, what with all the lines going everywhere. C3 LobeStudy, by Chris Double, will connect with C3 (it has no concept of DS) but will display the output of your chosen lobe and then promptly freeze up, and I have to use task manager to shut it off. At least the output it gives just before freezing up is easy to interpret. If someone could make a less buggy, easy to interpret brain viewer for C3/DS, that would make it so much easier. By the way, Amaikokonut, you inspired me to make the Curiosity norns, available here. By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do. |
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Malkin Manager |
From Andrea Di Stefano: "We’ll think about opening the discussion on categories as we are in deep thinking mode on what the most meaningful categories are! I encourage you and the community to share your thoughts on this interesting, your experience can be valuable "So this is both 'doing away with old categories' and 'adding useful new categories'!!!!!  As the reasoning behind having both 'music' and 'toy' - 'music' could be used for objects which soothe loneliness, fear, anger, etc. whereas 'toy' could be used for straight boredom. My TCR Norns |
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Ettina |
"In the most ideal situation, however, the categories wouldn't have names, as creatures can learn names of individual objects. Surely a pipe dream but I know it's what everyone's wanted for years." Grandroids will have this, according to Steve Grand. By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do. |
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