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General Forum |
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| So what did you think of the live stream 1 | 2 | |
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Sonicfan2525

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6/28/2013 | |
The live stream that happened today was quite entertaining was it not? After being gone for nearly a month, I came back to see that one was going on today and I managed to watch it after missing a little bit of the beginning. I loved all the things that they showed off and it only makes my hype for the game even stronger. One thing I thought would cause a bit of controversy was the aging potion. What did you guys think of the live stream?
https://images.khinsider.com/Graphics/Signatures/riku111.jpg
"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay... small acts of kindness and love."
- Gandalf the Grey in "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey"
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 Patient Pirate
ylukyun
     Manager
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6/28/2013 | |
Loved it! Settled a lot of questions for me about exactly what this game is and how it will work. Raised a few new ones too. Plus it's always nice when everyone comes together to chat.
I don't see the aging potion itself causing any controversy. It's easy enough to force age Norns in the original games. Maybe the fact that it's tied into the currency system which already seems pretty controversial. |

Sonicfan2525

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6/28/2013 | |
I loved how everyone got together to chat and talk about what was being shown. Its nice for a fan base to come together like that. I thought how the aging potion would be kinda controversial because it could essentially makes the game too easy in some cases, but I suppose when I look back on it, it really isint that big of a deal.
https://images.khinsider.com/Graphics/Signatures/riku111.jpg
"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay... small acts of kindness and love."
- Gandalf the Grey in "The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey"
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Charity
 
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6/28/2013 | |
... |

Liil

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6/28/2013 | 1 |
A complete different type of game, similar to sim city, sims 3 and c&c/warcraft3(energy farming, resources lol)
The norns brain seems to exist no more in its old way.
In other creatures games, because of the norns brain it would take a lot of complex actions for the norn to water a plant: Getting the watering pot, approaching the plant, pushing the watering pot.
But now: One simple action and animation is doing it. The action is now looking more realistic and complex, but it is noting more like a sim is doing the same watering in his/her garden.
The norns sometimes just hanging around, doing nothing, they seem to be “stupid”
Feeding norns cookies and burgers? No cheese, triffid or tomatoes? I hope that insuline is not included in their metabolism 
40% of the Game is about buying things, the shop screen and popups are always torturing my eyes, i did not notice that observing norns or interacting with the enviroment is important or funny in anyway.
Just finishing the Quests from Master Shee, making money, feeding norns cheating-potions that´s it. Small, dangerless worlds with poor landscape structure, not similar to the complex dollhouses from the past series.
The norn design is another point wich I dont like: Only the body is growing, the Head stays the same size from baby to adult. Babyheads are tooooo huge in my opinion, the whole shape doesent look even nornish in this age in anyway. Eyes = Too small and round shaped. Ears = Catlike, not nornish.
The movement system is similar to pets series from 90s, I liked the games verry much but i´m really thinking that this is too uncomfortable in 2013. Real 3D or a really complex and well designed 2D game engine would look better. 2D games had done a high jump of complexity in the last years, especially the indie-games.
Ok, I dont like C4 but I love the evolution of C3/DS and all the new complex additions done by the community: Garden Box, the breeds and rooms of Breeders Beware, CFE-Genome, new breeding scripts and many other cool things.
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Feddlefew
  
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6/28/2013 | |
I've already posted once about my thoughts in the other thread. However, I forgot to mention was a little surprised to see the amount of emphasis the game has on terraforming, and norns interactions with their environments. I think having nornish gardening is great, personally, especially combined with the reasonable eating habits I observed in the video.
The other thing the game reminded me of was the candy-box like A Dark Room.
ETA: Also, the new Learning Machine design has officially given me nightmares as of about 2 am today. |

mfb


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6/28/2013 | |
I'm very excited (more than I thought I'd be) hence a sudden explosion of blog posts.
Liil I played Petz and I don't see the visual resemblance in the slightest, can you explain?
Shee Tea Shop |
 Tea Queen
Laura
    

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6/28/2013 | |
I loved how we all chatted and experienced CO together, and seeing so many faces, old and new. It was lovely and I really felt a part of something big and exciting! I also really enjoyed naming the new Norns as they hatched with everyone; that was so funny. Same with the Sleeping Potion; if only falling asleep was that easy in real life! I definitely feel more excited for the game to be released now, after witnessing some real game play and having so many questions answered. Things suddenly seem real and my iPad is waiting in eagerness!
Aw, I'm sorry you missed most of it, Charity. I'm sure there'll be other meet ups with Fishing Cactus; they'll have more to show us down the line I imagine! |
 Wee Scrivener
Trell
    

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6/28/2013 | 1 |
I fell in love yesterday; those Norns were *adorable*. It doesn't have the same kind of charm as Creatures 1, but it's got plenty of charm of its own kind. I'm really excited for it! I think it's going to turn out a lot better than expected, even if it's not exactly how we might have imagined it. 
Trell
"Holy crap in a casket!" |

Jessica
    

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6/28/2013 | |
The chat wasn't working for me, so I was only able to watch the video. In all honesty, I was really put off by the coin collecting and monotonous music in the background. I'm willing to give Creatures Online a chance, though, especially since it will likely be a gateway to attract new players to the series! I also think it will be different to actually play it myself.
Definitely doesn't seem to be finished, even though they're in alpha testing. The two year wait has been rather tedious, but I really hope they make a lot of progress. My initial reaction was that this was not a game I could play for a long time, but I'll still give it a shot!
Discover Albia |
 Tea Queen
Laura
    

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6/28/2013 | |
Honestly, I think Creatures Online will be a game I'll enjoy playing more on iOS, rather than on a PC. I love, love, love playing games on my iPad and the idea that I'll be able to carry my Norns around with me.  |

magpie-angel
  

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6/28/2013 | |
i was a little iffy with the currency system. its not really a problem it just sort of reminded me of a facebook game system.
i loved how the appearance genetics worked. it always bugged me that it was more like a mix and match with body parts in previous games so its nice to see something more smooth
also feddlefew i decided to play that game you mentioned and its really sort of creepy |

Tarlia
 
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6/28/2013 | 1 |
It's definitely not my cup of tea. It looks a bit like Creatures Village on steroids, far too colourful and bright, and the music was really annoying. The coin system was always going to be a huge feature - that's how Fishing Cactus plans on earning money with this game, after all. That's what Free to Play games are like, unfortunately.
But that's exactly what I was expecting, so no surprises there. That's okay, I hope the people who fall more into the demographic do enjoy it. There's always the older games, and there's Steve Grand's project to look forward to. |

magpie-angel
  

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6/28/2013 | |
i will still preorder it and play it regardless because it does still seem interesting even if there are some down points but we knew what those points were from the beginning like Tarlia said.
i still can't wait for steve grand's project just because that will truely be a huge breakthrough in AI and Genetics |

Frick

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6/28/2013 | 2 |
I probably shouldn't be posting a ramble as I actually missed the livestream, but I have seen various demos and kept an eye on fishingcactus updates. In any case I felt I had to vent.
My venting was a bit long for a comment so I've posted it to my old livejournal: http://piccadillyo.livejournal.com/8991.html
I'd be interested to know whether or not you agree with me.
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 For Science!
InsanityPrelude
 
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6/28/2013 | |
So is the simulation/gameplay as dumbed down as some of the stuff about it's making it sound?
/curbs urge to ramble on about why I dislike F2P and always-online-single-player |

NimhsLab
   
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6/28/2013 | |
I personally think it will be a lot of fun, although the addition of quests and coins seem rather annoying. They didn't seem that intrusive, though. I think I could just ignore it whenever I didn't need a plant or something.
It does seem a bit like they put kiddy-bumpers on it, but what can we expect? It isn't our game. We aren't the target audience, 11 year old girls with a nurturing instinct are. Besides, It looks like they left all the complexity there, they just put a layer of frill over it.
[chirping and clicking] Clicks for a winter god! >  |

Jessica
    

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6/28/2013 | 2 |
These types of games usually keep my interest for a month or so, if they're lucky. The only free-to-play iPhone game I still use is Flutter, but that's more because I want to just finish it and get rid of it. I get little enjoyment out of it, which is what I worry about with Creatures Online. Once the mini-quests are completed and the genetics/breeding aspect is basically completed, will there be enough content to keep people engaged? The lack of third party development seems like it might be a real hindrance.
Think of the original Creatures games. I know it's a rather different concept, but would we all be so fond of them if third party development wasn't there? I think we still might play, but there wouldn't be as much to be excited about.
I'm still maintaining a positive feeling about Creatures Online, although in my mind I do worry that it won't have the staying power of the other games. In the worst case, I figure I might just run back to C1 or C3/DS and appreciate the Norns, Grendels, and Ettins more than I ever did!
Discover Albia |

Tarlia
 
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6/28/2013 | 3 |
Indeedy, on the third party development. That's the single thing that's kept this community going for so long. Without the countless agents, metarooms and new breeds, everyone would have lost interest ages ago.
Another thing that really, really gets to me is that the norns now will perform scripted actions. I didn't see much of the livestream, admittedly, but someone mentioned a norn watering a plant? A norn brain is NOT capable of such a thing, that's a very complex action and with all respect, the Fishing Cactus team is not competent enough to make such an advancement in AI. They're no Steve Grand. They're not even a Lis Morris. Granted C3/DS did have a little bit of scripting (such as ettins bringing stuff back to their terrarium, which was at least partially assisted by scripting), but nothing like this. The creatures' actions were always their own, even when guided heavily by instincts. Now... it's like any other fluffy pets game, isn't it? Why bother to put all that complex stuff in the background when you're going to put basic scripted animations on top of it in the end anyway?
Edit: Also, Frick, I read through your rant and agree completely.
Edit2: Didn't mean to accidentally like my own post. :S |

Malkin
     Manager

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6/28/2013 | 1 |
The act of eating something usually requires a lot of muscle control to find the item and put it in one's mouth, and in the Creatures series, doing that action has been simplified for the norn. I don't see why 'watering the plant' in Creatures Online is any different. For them, it's the same thing as pushing a toy or whatever - they decide to 'look after plant', and then they do it, with the assistance of the animation scripts. They still appear to have free will.
My TCR Norns |
 Wee Scrivener
Trell
    

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6/28/2013 | 1 |
Something like "look toy" "get toy" "push toy", yes? Only it's more of "look plant" "push plant" "care for plant", right?
Trell
"Holy crap in a casket!" |

Feddlefew
  
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6/28/2013 | |
Technically, there's (if I remember) 4 activations in C3/DS- Push, Pull, Eat, Hit. In no particular order.
The CO games just add an new one- "maintain". |

rubberducky

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6/28/2013 | 1 |
I'm so sorry I missed it! Gah. I'll watch the video clips right now... |

Steelfoot

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6/28/2013 | 1 |
Malkin wrote: The act of eating something usually requires a lot of muscle control to find the item and put it in one's mouth, and in the Creatures series, doing that action has been simplified for the norn. I don't see why 'watering the plant' in Creatures Online is any different. For them, it's the same thing as pushing a toy or whatever - they decide to 'look after plant', and then they do it, with the assistance of the animation scripts. They still appear to have free will.
I really wanna see what happens in the new 3D world when pose/animation genes mutate. NY Walker in three dimensions!
On the stream and what I saw in the game, though, I'm happy with how it looks and that there's some simplifications to the interface (it looks like there was a right-click menu for some objects that had "say" commands to make it easier to direct norns without having to type messages over and over), but I'm still concerned. As I said near the end, I've set my expectations really low for this game, so that hopefully when it comes out I'll be pleasantly surprised instead of completely accurate. Part of this is because it's difficult to wait for a game that you're excited for (and I still am), but a lot of it is because I've been pretty badly burned by franchise revivals in the past. I'm very much worried that the new publisher that Fishing Cactus picked up will try to push to make a short-term profit at the expense of Fishing Cactus' original goals and the Creatures community's good will, rather than providing a decent and fun game that will continue to do well and turn profits for a longer period of time.
I was going to write an enormous wall of text on the currency systems (being experience, coins, and golden eggs), but that's not really important. It's more important that I say that I have really high hopes for the game, and want to see it do well, but have to aim low so that when I'm inevitably disappointed by something, it won't be nearly as bad. So, here are my hopes and expectations for Creatures Online's currencies:
Hopes:
-No paywall on major devices
-Everything obtainable ingame (TF2-style random drop system?) possibly save for breed packs
-Experience system gives boosts to long-time players rather than an excuse to paywall everything
-Coins used something like C3's bioenergy
-Golden eggs used for neat-looking things (e.g. special decorations, norn hats), breed packs, and minor boosts (cheap, slight increase in experience gain)
-Future use of user-developed content (Steam Workshop style?)
-A pony
Expectations:
-Paywall on science kits in particular, or severe time walling on everything
-Few items for free players
-Experience system very slow, is key to unlocking science kits, etc.
-Coins exorbitantly time-consuming to get as an excuse to pressure people to pay
-Golden eggs give a disproportionate advantage to paid players
-No updates ever
-A really ugly sweater
In closing, I'll still hopefully smile and say thank you about both of these outcomes, but I'd really much rather have the pony. |

Malkin
     Manager

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6/28/2013 | |
It did seem like Sophie was playing to knock some of the goals out of the way - and she seemed to be hampered by the wait time for coins at times.
I wonder if we'll be able to set a coin foundry going overnight, but not have our norns aging and dying while we're not there? :/
My TCR Norns |

Jessica
    

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6/28/2013 | |
I didn't have the benefit of following along with the chat, but I agree with you, Malkin, about the goals seeming to be a very central focus to get out of the way. There were also a few times when nothing was really going on while she waited for the coins to generate. I kept yelling, "Stop buying cookies and save!" but I guess Norns just look too cute when they nomming away on those. Ha ha!
I'm not sure if we could wait for a coin foundry without having everything else age/die. Unless the world was already uninhabited, and you just waited to hatch some Norns. Somehow I feel like this would be discouraged in some way, though, since it seems like Norns need to be present for a lot of things to work (even ecology elements).
I could be wrong, but I think it's been said before that multiple worlds likely won't be possible with the login, and that restarting a world might not be a priority at launch. I could be wrong, though. Still... I really like at least having the ability to start over if things go very poorly. We'll have to see.
Discover Albia |

rubberducky

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6/28/2013 | |
From what I've seen so far, I agree, the game appears very "Sims"-like. |
 For Science!
InsanityPrelude
 
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6/29/2013 | |
Steelfoot pretty much summed up my fears.
I guess FC assumed it's the only way they could make money off the game... even though plenty of low-budget or indie games seem to do well for themselves selling for cheap on Steam and the like. I don't know nearly enough about how the industry works to say "but x would work better", although I guess I play enough games to say "x would probably be better for the game"... If only we lived in a world where they didn't have to worry about the money!
I can think of one example of F2P done well (Kingdom of Loathing, as I mentioned in another thread)- but a big part of why it works in that game is the player marketplace, which wouldn't really make sense in CO. |

Malkin
     Manager

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6/29/2013 | |
What's the meaning of the little brain picture that sometimes floats above their head? Does it mean that they're thinking, learning, being reinforced?
My TCR Norns |

Tarlia
 
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6/29/2013 | |
"Watering the plant" requires using one object with another object. Use watering can with plant. In the previous games, norns have only understood "push/pull/eat/hit object". There is a huge difference between these things. Of course, FC might have simplified it down to "pushing plant makes watering can magically appear in norn's hand and water the plant", but doesn't that still seem like a bit of a cheat to you? |

Malkin
     Manager

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6/29/2013 | |
In our world, yes. In Creatures Online, the watering can *isn't* an item, as far as I can see (you can't buy it in the shop, even!) - it's just a visual cue that we understand for 'taking care of a plant'. The norns could equally be fertilising it in ways that are best left unsaid, but the watering can motif was chosen instead. 
My TCR Norns |

Tarlia
 
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6/29/2013 | |
Still, do they understand why they're doing this? Norns can learn that eating food = makes them less hungry, pushing toy = makes them less bored, pushing norn = lowers their sex drive... What do they get out of "caring" for a plant? That's what I mean by a cheat. It's cute, but it really has nothing to do with AI. I'd honestly prefer it if I could water the plant, taking care of it so it will grow food for the norns. That would make a lot more sense. |

Feddlefew
  
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6/29/2013 | |
Tarlia wrote: Still, do they understand why they're doing this? Norns can learn that eating food = makes them less hungry, pushing toy = makes them less bored, pushing norn = lowers their sex drive... What do they get out of "caring" for a plant? That's what I mean by a cheat. It's cute, but it really has nothing to do with AI. I'd honestly prefer it if I could water the plant, taking care of it so it will grow food for the norns. That would make a lot more sense.
Norns can't directly learn to use vendors or push elevator calls either, so these maintenance actions probably work the same way as those did.
I wouldn't be surprised if those activities lowered boredom substantially, considering that norns boredom never seemed to go into the red during the stream. |

Tarlia
 
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6/29/2013 | |
Feddlefew wrote:
Norns can't directly learn to use vendors or push elevator calls either, so these maintenance actions probably work the same way as those did.
I wouldn't be surprised if those activities lowered boredom substantially, considering that norns boredom never seemed to go into the red during the stream.
Precisely why I never thought vendors were a good food source for norns. They don't understand the sequence of hungry -> push vendor -> makes food -> eat food. A bored norn might push a vendor over and over again because it's fun, flooding the world with food, but a hungry norn might ignore the vendor completely and starve to death right next to it. Incidentally, the only vendor that exists in a C1 vanilla world is the carrot vendor on the island, which feeds the norn directly instead of dropping the food on the ground. That they do understand.
Lift buttons and lifts are both fun for norns, true, so that's a bit of a workaround. Which is why C1 norns tend to ride lifts up and down, up and down, up and down... I suspect this might be more scripted in DS/C3, pushing doors as well. And CO seems to be taking the scripting one step further.
It's why I - overall - still think C1 is the best game, even if DS/C3 has a lot of much more advanced world building options and you can do many more things with it (and I do/did enjoy DS/C3 quite a bit, don't get me wrong). C1 is simple, but it's the most pure Artificial Life experience out of them all. So, yeah, CO is just not for me, because it's headed more and more away from what attracted me to Creatures in the first place. Others look for different things in a Creatures game, and that's okay, and I hope they do find this new game fun and that the coin collecting doesn't get too much in the way for them. But this is a pet game with bits of old AL code behind it, it's not actually an Artificial Life game. I'm still waiting for the "real" Creatures 2, I guess.  |

Feddlefew
  
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6/29/2013 | 1 |
Why not add a drive to reduce? Overall, the effect is that norns are less dependent on the hand.
ETA: The use of doors and lifts is combination of scripting and drives. If a norn needs to go through a door to get to the CA they're navigating too, they feel trapped, which makes them want to push doors to lower the drive. The same thing applies for using lifts to reach CAs with High Up and Low Down. |

Malkin
     Manager

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6/29/2013 | 1 |
They 'get' a lowered altruism drive out of caring for a plant. We didn't get to see a 'wolfling' response from the norns, but they did get a few tickles as well for their efforts.
My TCR Norns |
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