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 GimmeCat   |
As the years tick on by, gradually the last remaining Creatures fansites and old archives disappear into the ether, taking with them many unique and obscure cobs, breeds, and agents. It's a law of nature: everything dies. But in its place, new life grows to replace what's lost. I've been thinking about this whenever I read the Lost Downloads Detectives thread. Many of those requests go unfulfilled because the files are just... gone. With that in mind, I've been wondering if the Creatures Caves community would support an initiative of re-creating old COBs and Agents that have been forever lost to the sands of time? I offer this idea as a community effort, and all qualified Cobbers are welcome and encouraged to contribute! To define "re-create" in this context: * Use the original idea/description to script an object that performs the same functions as the original * Create new sprites for the object where needed, as permissions usually cannot be sought from the original authors anymore * Give credit for the idea to the original author * Any additional functionality can be added either in the original object, or supplied as an 'advanced' version In my opinion, the best use for this idea would be to bring back objects that had a unique function, that no other COB/Agent has since replaced. Lower priority objects would be things that have equivilent (but different in exact look/function) downloads still available. What does everyone think? And btw, if you have any suggestions for lost COBs/Agents you'd like to see re-created, go ahead and list them! If you can find their original description or download page (sans the download, of course) that would be extremely useful. I myself can do requests for C1 and C2. |
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 Wrong Banshee Dragoler  |
My first thought was the Borg Norns for C3/DS. I remember playing with them several years ago, but as far as I know they aren't around anymore. ![:\](/images/smilies/confused.gif ":\") Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.  |
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 Code Monkey evolnemesis |
I still have the installer for those... I didn't think I got them that long ago... I never actually got around to messing with them. Edit: Actually, just did a little searching and I think I found the Borg Norns here... "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 DeadbeatD |
i fully support this project! having recently gotten back onto the creatures scene, i've been sad to see that some things have been lost to the sands of time... i am just getting back into modding for the game, so learning/relearning how to make good COBs will take a little while. however, until then i can help by at least offering webspace to host mirrors of whatever people revive! can never have enough mirrors, as we have seen |
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GimmeCat |
DeadbeatD wrote: This is awesome, thank you! Yes, hosting is a very important issue. A big reason why so many files are gone is because they were only ever hosted in 1 place. Sadly, back in those days, a lot of people had a "don't rehost my files" policy, which I always found incredibly bizarre, because their websites were bound to go offline someday and take all their files with it. |
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 Peppery One Papriko |
What kind of "recreation" are we talking about? Just the general concept or idea or do you mean literally trying to do the same thing, including e.g. the graphics from old screenshots and everything? Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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 Tea Queen Laura |
Since ideas can't be copyrighted, I think recreating lost agents and COBs in a new form would be fine.  To me, it would feel a bit iffy if that meant directly copying the original creators' old code and sprites, but I don't think that's what's being proposed here!It's just a shame that these lost downloads really can't be found anywhere, as it would be a lot easier just to rehost them. Some new mirrors of old websites would be great too! It's all part of our community's history.  |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
evolnemesis wrote: Thank you, and good to know! Yes, I think the intention is to re-create the spirit of the old agents/cobs, not to carbon copy them. As well as downloadables, several useful resources are lost when these websites go down, it might be worth re-creating those too! I remember reading a resource on seeyou7.net about how pose genes work, when I went back to check it the site had gone down. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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 Lollipop Lord C-Rex |
Has anybody tried to contact Sparkleblue in regards to seeyou7.net? It seems a shame that such a long-standing and prolific website has suddenly been lost. |
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GimmeCat |
Laura wrote: This is correct. The idea isn't to copy, but to re-use the idea and function of the lost COB in something new. Crediting the original author for the idea is mostly a formality, as like you say, ideas aren't sacred. But as we're taking direct inspiration from them, it is only polite and honest to point out where the design originated. |
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Lollipop Lord C-Rex |
It'd be cool (no pun intended) if somebody could re-release a more modern version of Ostrova, with better sprites and Yeren Grendels that don't suffer from black edges around their body parts. |
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Tea Queen Laura |
I'd love to see Ostrova get a revamp, but how ethical would that be when the original metaroom is still available for purchase at the Chaos Created online store? |
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GimmeCat |
How ethical is charging money for mods? |
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Tea Queen Laura |
I'm not saying I agree with it. I'm just playing devil's advocate here. |
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 Tartan Badger Hellfrozeover |
If it's above board with the past and current creators of the game then it's completely ethical. Yes, sadly it means that many younger and/or less well off members don't get to enjoy them, but why shouldn't someone earn a living from something that they put a lot of time and work into? On topic- I quite like the idea It has the potential to rub creators up the wrong way should they return to the CC, but if they do return, the issue of the missing CC is probably going to be resolved anyway.In creating new objects, it also means the potential for improved graphics as while a lot of the CC created was very well made and much loved, the graphics are sometimes of their time and within the constraints imposed on the creator by their computer system and means. It's a lot easier to create objects in the appearance of the timeless style of the game itself now. DUNDUNDUUUUUN! |
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Lollipop Lord C-Rex |
On the subject of recreating metarooms, I actually started work on recreating the Darcial Piranha from the monturrarium in 2014, but kind of abandoned it. On the subject of paying for mods, I think it's fine if they are priced appropriately, but from what I've seen Ostrova costs more than the actual games, which I think is pretty unfair. A similar thing has happened with the Sims 3 but I found a website dedicated to distributing them for free, as it was perfectly legal according to EA's terms of service. |
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GimmeCat |
@Hellfrozeover Agreed. I've got my eye on something to revive for C2 (the Violet Walking Vine) that I'd love to create new sprites for. Only if the original is totally lost, though. |
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 LordDarkPsycho |
Here's my two cents on this.... It all comes down to licensing. If the agent, cob, metaroom, or breed was released with a license, that can guide you as to what you can, and possibly more importantly, cannot do. For my modern stuff, I prefer a Creative Commons License. IT allows for derivative works while still allowing me to take credit for the original, and disallows people from making money off of my work. Unfortunately, most agents I know of were released without a license. And as we cannot contact the original creators, that puts them into the category of Orphaned works. In the U.S., legally you cannot do anything with Orphaned works, including making derivative works such as what you propose. As an professional admin, I'd have to be very concerned about the liability I would be taking on hosting such derivative works on any site I work on, as at any time the original creators can legally sue you for copyright infringement. Would they? I have a hard time seeing anyone doing it, but it doesn't change the fact that they have the right to. As for the paid metaroom in question, I have a very, very hard time seeing it being released under any license that would allow a derivative work. And if it is in fact still available somewhere to buy, it is not an orphaned work, therefore the liability in producing it would be even greater. However, without a copy of the EULA (or equivalent) for the metaroom, I cannot say exactly what you are and are not legally able to do. I should note here I am not a lawyer, and if you have questions about your liability in such an endeavor under the law, you really should seek out a licensed lawyer, preferably one who has some experience in dealing with international copyright law and licensing, but any lawyer should be able to give some advice. Just figured I"d add my personal opinion to the discussion... TL;DR: Check the license, and if it has none, be weary of what you do. Father of the Psycho Grendels Former Sensei of Blackstar Dojo Friend to CC Admins oh and... Current Admin of the FC (Minecraft Server) The FC Minecraft Server: Home of The Encraftment |
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GimmeCat |
Well that's okay, as I don't propose making "derivative works". The idea is to create new cobs, from scratch, based off old ideas. No actual assets will be re-used, exactly for the reason that obtaining usage rights would usually be difficult.Personally, the thoughts of lawyers needing to get involved sounds more than a bit ridiculous. |
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Tartan Badger Hellfrozeover |
I think you'd be safe to do that, GimmeCat. Just look at the fashion world, it happens all the time  DUNDUNDUUUUUN! |
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LordDarkPsycho |
I'm sorry if I mistated, Creating new cobs, from scratch, based off of the old ideas IS a derivative work in the eyes of the law. You can call a skunk a rose, but it will still stink. Example: Disney created their Hercules using nothing but the original idea, and took nothing of the orignal mythos in their story. Yet it is, in fact, a derivative work of a public domain story that is the Mythos. Father of the Psycho Grendels Former Sensei of Blackstar Dojo Friend to CC Admins oh and... Current Admin of the FC (Minecraft Server) The FC Minecraft Server: Home of The Encraftment |
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GimmeCat |
I will need a source that states that it is possible to make "derivative works" off ideas alone, because what I'm reading doesn't support that statement. Ideas cannot be copywritten. (2) |
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LordDarkPsycho |
You are right, the idea itself cannot be copyrighted. But the work can, and there are many companies who have successfully sued because they can prove a work, although developed independently, was sufficiently similar to their work as to infringe on the copyright. At the end of the day I cannot tell you what to do, nor have I tried. Nor will I try to stop you either, as it's not my place. You will do what you will, as we all will. I just advise caution, and be prepared to take down a work if asked. And also know I will not be contributing (I know, <sarcasm>such a BIG loss</sarcasm>, not like I've done much lately, but hey, it's my two cents) Also a note, the Psycho Grendels, released by the "EC" as a part of CCSF 06 (I think), is solely my work, and I believe is still available. However, if it is not, I give full permission to recreate it. If anyone dares.... Father of the Psycho Grendels Former Sensei of Blackstar Dojo Friend to CC Admins oh and... Current Admin of the FC (Minecraft Server) The FC Minecraft Server: Home of The Encraftment |
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Lollipop Lord C-Rex |
Has anybody ever been sued within the Creatures Community? |
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GimmeCat |
I understand. While I don't share the same opinions, your input is definitely appreciated and I'm grateful for the advice and info you've brought into the discussion. |
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Tea Queen Laura |
C-Rex wrote: |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I have a hard time believing that anyone who were to complain about an agent or cob that does something similar to their own could have any leg to stand on if there were to take it that far. There are a dozen to one agents and cobs that all do similar or even identical things e.g. teach vocab, dispense seeds, kill bacteria etc. Having fresh new code and sprites but doing the same sorta thing should not be enough to get you in trouble. We would not be copying someone else's story (like in your Hercules example), we would be copying very VERY common ideas. How different would a common idea have to be to not be considered derivative? Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Peppery One Papriko |
Another thing that might be interesting to consider is what is an "idea" and what isn't? To take Dragoler's example: teaching vocab probably isn't. The whole concept is just too generic. It is essentially just a single command provided by the default library. That's like... IDK, programming in C and claiming someone plagiarized your interface simply for using stdin and stdout. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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Lollipop Lord C-Rex |
@Laura: I sort of knew that about Wafaru already. Personally I see informing someone's ISP about it seems a bit far, but I guess I'd be a little peeved if someone went and stole my art without giving me credit. I think the idea of recreating old cobs is pretty cool. What I would like to see too is a complete HD remake of the creatures games, but that probably isn't possible given how limited the sprite system is. |
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 SpaceShipRat |
Legally, you can make a snow themed metaroom with snow themed blue eyed white grendels, but you can't call them Ostrova and Yeren Grendels, or use the actual art from them. Ideas cannot be copywritten, names, artwork and code can. |
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