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 Wrong Banshee Dragoler    |
Hey everyone, I have been building a new breed of creature I call "Marinorns", they are social, predatory and strictly aquatic.  My problem arises about an hour, give or take (it differs for each creature) through their life-cycle; at a certain point they start refusing to eat critters, starving themselves to death. It isn't connected to life stage, I have checked over their stimulus and instinct genes multiple times and I have even tried adjusting their breathing rates and long-term digestion... the latter seemed to work for a while but once I moved the creatures out of my controlled environment into a more vibrant one they started to revert faster. They use the undine norn, nano bruin and aquanorn sprites and are based on the bengal genome. Does anyone have any idea what might be going wrong? I don't know if I can post the genome file here. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.  |
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 Peppery One Papriko |
Are you sure that they have intense instincts which tell them to eat critters instead of vegetarian food? The normal ones are more than subtle. You also need the stimulus gene to give them a good boost for "eaten critter". Also, are you sure the critters you work with are coded correctly and actually give their respective stimulus? Some people just artificially reduce chemicals with the CHEM command for example, but creatures do not learn from changes via CHEM. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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 Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Even worse then badly coded eat scripts, is the fact that some critters actually don't even allow the eat action in their BHVR, and that will cause creatures to get a disappointment stim when they try to eat them, which is almost as unpleasant and discouraging as being slapped by the hand for that action. If this happens enough times, they will stop ever trying to eat critters, and even ignore suggestions to. I'd definitely make sure all your critters they may have contact with are properly edible. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
All food instincts tell them to eat critters at maximum "reduces hunger for x" intensity. I also changed a couple of the food instincts to tell them not to try and eat detritus and beasts (eat them = pain), it doesn't stop them from trying once they hit that point though. the stimulus for eating critters reduced hunger for protein and fat, and gives them protein and fat at a higher intensity than the base stimuli for seed, fruit and food. I also added in a chemical reaction that converts some fat into glucose and reduces hunger for starch. I feed them shrimp from the aqatilis pod and C2 crabs. I might try and change around their stimuli/reactions so they get a more direct starch satiation response, I will also try feeding them exclusively official critters. Edit: just read evolnemesis' post, I considered that might be the issue at 1st so I moved them to a location where there are only edible critters (and some beasts), but it still happens. However the disappointment response does seem to fit the description the best. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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 Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager |
What sort of Bengal genome are you using? If you're using the default genome, that likely explains your problem. Any creature using a default genome tends to start acting extremely stupid later on in life due to how their brains work. If you're not willing to abandon your previous work, then it's a simple enough fix - follow the steps here under the "Combination Lobe" heading, and you should have smarter norns. Although it won't guarantee that they'll stick with critters their entire life, it'll ensure that they'll at least try to take care of themselves. However, if you're willing to start completely from screatch, you could switch over to a full CFE-based genome. That not only has the above issue fixed, but adds a lot of other useful fixes as well. The CFF genome has all the CFE fixes plus even more fixes and changes to make C3/DS creatures closer to C1/C2 creatures in behavior. Most people will probably tell you to use the CFF genome, and some of the edits from that genome are worth using. But personally, I prefer the CFE genome since the changes are less extensive while still being extremely useful, making them more compatible with older genomes as far as breeding is concerned. Plus they're still leaps and bounds in front of the original genomes as far as intelligence is concerned. Also, a member's username is the clickable name in blue letters. "Code Monkey" is actually evolnemesis. Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
Thank you grendel_man, the brain was my prime suspect but I didn't dare touch those genes with a 10-foot barge-pole! I will try and use the improved genomes as a base from now on. As for this breed i'l follow those steps to fix it and report back if it worked. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Grendel_Man wrote: I know this is off topic, but I'm curious, have you noticed any particular issues with them interbreeding with other older genomes? I haven't tested it a lot, but the way their new genes are set all at the end of the genome, they should pretty much just inherit almost all of the CFF fixes together and not really have issues with mismatched gene sections getting swapped... I also made sure with genes that I changed that any possible combinations of the normal and CFF genes would not cause any extra problems if they came up in a crossbreed (at worst they shouldn't be any worse off than a pure-blood non-CFF). I even have gene changes there specifically to make it more likely for crosses to get rid of harmful issues that normal genomes usually just always have. I haven't seen or heard of issues with sliders or anything like that with them yet, and really they should be as compatible with older genomes as CFE are. This adding all the new genes on the end trick is why the DS ChiChis can interbreed with C3 Bengals without causing sliders or serious gait/pose problems, even though they have about 20 more genes, almost all pose genes (and also why problems caused by CFE crosses with older breeds are also rare, all their new genes are also at the end... CFF basically just puts a bunch more there). I would avoid crossing older, pre-1.0 test versions of CFF with the official breed versions though because then many of the new genes won't line up with each other. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager |
If I'm honest, I've never used the full CFF genomes and don't really have a desire to. I was basically going off theory there, and thinking about it now I'm really not sure if it has any merit. I still think the CFE genome would be a little easier for someone who's transitioning from the original genomes to work with, just because their changes are less extensive and therefore easier to understand. Then again, I guess that's more something that depends on the person. For the record, only two of the new genes in the ChiChi genome are at the end of the genome. The rest of them are grouped with related genes further up (e.g. the new instincts are grouped with the previously existing ones). For the sake of not derailing Dragoler's thread, I'm just going to leave it at that. Risen Angel's Creatures Blog |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I lost all the captions so this is extremely difficult Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Peppery One Papriko |
It won't restore ALL the captions, but a lot of them (which is useful since all unlabelled genes are those added by you), but here is a small tip: copy the .gno file of the genome you started with and rename it so that it's file name exactly matches the filename of your genome, e.g. mysupergenome.gen and mysupergenome.gno. .gen are the actual genetics the game needs, .gno are basically just labels and comments for gene editors. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
Very helpful, thank you How did I ever manage without you? lol Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I have made the adjustments, can someone tell me how to save my captions? Edit: Since updating their brains my creatures in the controlled environment have reached the 1 hour mark without reverting. Edit 2: 1 hour 45 mins in one of my 2nd gen creatures has reverted but my 1st gens are still functioning normally. Edit 3: 2 hours in my 1st gen has reverted. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Not sure what genetics editor you are using... If it's the Gameware C3 Genetics Kit, then just saving a genome with a name will also save or update its captions to a caption file with the same name, so it will just work next time. Other kits may be different, I don't have much experience using those. Grendel_Man wrote: You definitely have a point there, even I have a hard time wrapping my head around the changes now when I want to add them to a different breed like Bondis or Toxics, and I'm the one who came up with most of them, lol... I was just worried... Besides, I think it is really just the basic CFE brain changes that are the key to stopping that one hour stupidity thing that is causing the problem for those Norns anyway... I'm glad to hear they are working out. And to Dragoler, sorry for interjecting into the thread with that question to Grendel Man, I just saw his comment and got worried my new genomes were causing lots of sliders or had some kind of problem like that I didn't know about. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
It was a big improvement but still doesn't seem to have solved my problem. I am going to test them with the direct starch hunger satiation stimulus, and I put a few aside to test on only official critters (aquarium fish). Edit: 2 hours in the 1st gens are still functioning fine, thank you everyone for your help... I am going to go look into these CFF breeds now. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Some creatures with high levels of other unsatisfied drives can also get pre-occupied with those drives sometimes, to the point where they will not eat... Have you noticed them with any other high drives like constantly complaining of boredom or crowded or anything like that? The DS hoverdoc is really good for looking at drive levels, and the X-Ray is also really useful for looking at their health and drives. Barring agents like those, saying a drive word to them like 'bored' will get norns who understand Handish to tell you how in pretty fine detail how bothered they are by that drive or how satisfied they feel with that drive. For example, saying 'friendly' to a norn who is not really feeling frisky will get them to respond that they are some level of 'quiet', and I believe the word they use for not bored is 'content'. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Wrong Banshee Dragoler |
I monitor them closely with the hoverdock, sadly it doesn't show all the drives so I have to ask them "happy" or "homesick" to check comfort levels. Also, I have been looking through your CFF genomes evolnemesis and have made a 2nd version of my Marinorns based upon your CFF chichi, they are both nearly ready (I think). Side not, have you considered adding a stimulus for CA smell 5 (water), with a strong compulsion to retreat from it and an increase to coldness? It won't be perfect, but it might help with your drowning conundrum. Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Unfortunately that is one of the CA that the engine actually says is non-navigable. Creatures don't know how to retreat from or approach it. They apparently don't have the equipment to detect by themselves whether an area in one direction or the other has more or less of that CA. These react pretty well to drowning by getting fear steadily that builds to a complete freakout shortly before they would die from drowning... They have some slight instincts to go towards home or each other now that should help them get to safety, and also when it builds enough, their strong 'retreat grendel when afraid' instinct will be screaming in their head loudly enough that even though they see no grendel, they will run and retreat from anything, even just a direction they pick randomly if they don't know what else to try. They are quite good at saving themselves, but the experience does shake them up if they get to that real panic level... usually just feeling the build in fear start makes them turn around and decide whatever they are doing is bad, so if they walked into the water or something or are trying to rest there, they will stop that, and usually fix the situation before they get to the point of total panic. Also, the suffocation reaction in these is totally based on oxygen in the blood, and a by-product of that low oxygen level, so it should work equally well without needing any additional modifications in any aquatics/amphibious. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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