|
Development Forum |
 |
| Breedmaking: workflow, formats, tricks? | |
| 
SpaceShipRat
  
|
5/27/2015 | |
I'm mostly interested in drawing by hand, rather than 3D modeling.
-in what order do you usually do things? alphabetically? head first? adult sprites, then shrink them for children? How often and how soon do you test them in game?
-do I have to do something particular with my color pallette (I currently just have Gimp, btw) to make it show up correctly?
-is there any script or shortcut to process multiple images, rather than saving each single frame and importing it into spritebuilder? Maybe something to rotate the parts that just need to be rotated? I seem to recall something of the kind.
-quadruped norns, what's the state of the art? are there any successful quadrupedal breeds? Would it just need ATT changes, or would they absolutely need a genetically different walking cycle?
-can the game deal with differently sized images, say if I wanted one position of the body to have big, spread wings, and the other to have folded wings? I assume something like that would play havock with breeds with different ATT files, but within the same breed, is that possible?
Don't get your hopes up, I'm not very good at completing projects, or even starting them. But I've always wanted to try my hand at this. |

GimmeCat
  
|
5/27/2015 | |
I'm very interested in some of the answers to this as well.
I will answer the one I know. It's fine to use different sizes of image for a bodypiece in different poses. In fact, this is standard; an arm laying horizontally is a different image size to one raised vertically, even though it's the same sprite file.
Cross-breeding them should also not be a problem. If the creature is using a custom sprite, then it is also using that custom sprite's ATT file. As such, the game will always remember the "next part"/"previous part" points that you specified while building the poses in the ATT Editor.
I will also say, if you haven't started doing ATT stuff yet, that you need to check every single possible pose in every single possible configuration, and this INCLUDES left/right facing. Particularly with custom sprites that have non-standard sizes, you will need to manually edit virtually every point. So, this means: face the head and body all the way up, edit the points. Face the head partly down, edit the points. Face it more down, edit. Etc. Then face the body partly down, head all the way up, and edit the points. Then face the head slightly down, edit the points. Etc.
BONUS: You also have to do this entire thing at least five times (lifestages)
It is absolute torture, so gl. I doubt I will ever finish my Iguanorns because of this. It's just not feasible in a human lifespan unless somewhere out there exists a script to automate some of it. |

Missmysterics
 
|
5/27/2015 | |
Aardvark norns are quadruped purely due to sprites and atts. Tiger konnichiwa norns have normal sprites but genetically adopt a quadruped stance.
I'd assume creating a pody part with different sized images for each position would be making things a lot more difficult in making ATTs (if it works at all),though I don't necessarily see why it would mess up cross-breeds too much if it works on the original breed to begin with.
I do, however, think the engine might protest due to expecting the images to be the same size.
|
 Prodigal Sock
Ghosthande
    

|
5/27/2015 | |
SpaceShipRat wrote: -in what order do you usually do things? alphabetically? head first? adult sprites, then shrink them for children? How often and how soon do you test them in game?
It seems easiest to do the heads first, just to get them out of the way since they take so much time. Afterwards it usually feels like it's "all downhill from there", so to speak, since the other body parts take so little time in comparison.
I usually make sprites two or more times larger than adult size, because I've found that making adult sprites and then shrinking them 75% or 50% or 25% tends not to look very nice... starting out a little bigger and then shrinking the sprites for all ages has always given me much nicer-looking results. But since I don't draw sprites by hand, making them bigger doesn't make any more work for me.
Testing is all personal preference. I usually wait until all the sprites are finished, just because I like completing one step at a time rather than going back and forth working on different body parts. Unless some body part is causing crashes or something.
SpaceShipRat wrote: -do I have to do something particular with my color pallette (I currently just have Gimp, btw) to make it show up correctly?
I don't know about GIMP but you can try using a test sprite or two and see how well it imports. If it is an issue, I'd recommend making a full sprite sheet, then copy-pasting it from GIMP to Paint to SpriteBuilder. That'll nix any potential formatting issues and is much easier and quicker than dealing with thousands of bitmaps.
SpaceShipRat wrote: -is there any script or shortcut to process multiple images, rather than saving each single frame and importing it into spritebuilder? Maybe something to rotate the parts that just need to be rotated? I seem to recall something of the kind.
Even if formatting isn't a concern, sprite sheets are far superior to any method of handling individual sprites. Just use Cut -> Automatic Uncut to Clipboard to copy a sprite file to your clipboard in sprite sheet format, or paste a sprite sheet into SpriteBuilder and use Cut -> Automatic Cut to slice it up into individual frames.
I don't know about rotating body parts. The only automation of that kind that I know of is when you're rendering a 3D model. Rotating tiny body sprite images tends to look sucky.
SpaceShipRat wrote: -quadruped norns, what's the state of the art? are there any successful quadrupedal breeds? Would it just need ATT changes, or would they absolutely need a genetically different walking cycle?
I'm not sure why you'd want to edit the ATTs but not the genetics, since doing it the other way around is easier IMO? When you think about it, baby Norns are basically quadrupeds already, their hands just don't look like that much they're walking on them because of the sprites.
SpaceShipRat wrote: -can the game deal with differently sized images, say if I wanted one position of the body to have big, spread wings, and the other to have folded wings? I assume something like that would play havock with breeds with different ATT files, but within the same breed, is that possible?
You do not want to sprite frames used by the same part to ever be different sizes; this is a big no-no for any kind of agent. It worked in the older games, but C3/DS cannot handle it. Agents get away with a bounding box error, but it causes nasty crashiness for breeds.
Some C1toDS and C2toDS breeds do have differently sized sprites and still manage to be stable, but those specific examples are Creatures voodoo and defy what normally happens when someone tries it. Just add extra black space to the sprites that aren't as wide, or if they're unreasonably large or something, you might pare the wings out and see if you can make them separate body parts (such as, ears).
 |

GimmeCat
  
|
5/27/2015 | |
As far as I know, sprites of any size (within reason) should work if their dimensions are multiples of 2. I don't know about C3/DS, though. Sounds like those games are a bit more picky about it.
Something I forgot earlier: export your images as 24-bit BMP.
A more general tip, this applies to all kinds of art for all purposes: draw all your stuff in a big resolution. Make rotations etc before resizing down, otherwise as someone above mentioned, it will look bad to rotate a tiny image that has so fewer pixels. I painted the original Iguanorn sprites in a 700x700 image and that was still way too small to work with later on. |

SpaceShipRat
  
|
5/28/2015 | |
All the replies! Thanks 
Ok then, I'll avoid varying bmp sized in the same file. at that point I'll just stick to going over an existing breed, so I don't have to play with att files at all.
Just making norns crawl like babies actually works? I'd considered it, but having never seen it done I must have convinced myself it wasn't possible for some reason. I'll consider if there's a hand position that looks natural.
As for the size of the image, yeah, absolutely, when I tested an image, I'd actually gone for a 4x zoom, my drawing skills are bad enough that I need all the shrinking to hide the faults :3 |
 Prodigal Sock
Ghosthande
    

|
5/28/2015 | |
Yeah, you can copy the pose info from babies to the other life stages... or just switch "off" the mature walking gait so that they never stop crawling (which is quicker and more crossbreed-friendly). Personally I would go ahead and tweak the sprites a little bit too, because you're right that the hands don't quite look natural when they crawl. Almost like they're knuckle-walking or something.
 |

SpaceShipRat
  
|
5/31/2015 | |
Ok, this might get a little complicated: I was trying to figure out if wings look better on the body or on the arms.
I found this tutorial, and I've tested in-game and indeed, the body covers the upper arm when facing the front.
But: it doesn't in Trix's Vampyre grendels, which have wings on the body, but still look fine from the front.
How come? |
 Prodigal Sock
Ghosthande
    

|
5/31/2015 | |
Perhaps because Vampyre Grendel wings attach higher, and the attachment area isn't as large. They are still technically behind the arms, the two just don't overlap.
I wasn't really sure if this was the case at first, so I tested it by copying the Vampyre body sprite and pasting it over this picture. The wings very neatly avoid overlapping the upper arms, but both limbs are so close together that you don't really notice what's going on unless you look for it. Pretty clever solution IMO.
 |

SpaceShipRat
  
|
6/2/2015 | |
Disproving me with my own norns! 
I think I'll try that. with a grendel's body sprite, I should be able to fit in wings without even altering the attachment points, by sort of having them where the hump is... hmm.
Is there some program that lets you pose sprites out of the game? it's a little tedious to go back and forth in the game. |

GimmeCat
  
|
6/2/2015 | |
The ATT File Editor seems to be what most people use (including myself), but a short Google search also brought up this interesting utility I hadn't heard about before: Norminator |

SpaceShipRat
  
|
6/2/2015 | |
Can't seem to use Nornimator, something about visual basic not being supported on 64 bit systems. And compatibility mode doesn't help, annoyingly.
The other program is unavailable, with the CDN being down. Does it work for C3/DS as well as C2? |
 Prodigal Sock
Ghosthande
    

|
6/2/2015 | |
I'd be interested to know this, too. I've never heard of it before--I've always just used NotePad. ![[nblank] [nblank]](/images/smilies/emot_blank.gif)
 |
|