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 Luzze   |
Hello again  After a little.. long break I'm back to playing around with my norns and my favorite plant. I'm searching for a way to make a certain breed carry around their seeds. The seeds are classified as bad fruit/mankey right now (since they're poisonous to normal creatures!). Their behaviour doesn't need to be specific for the plants seeds. It would actually be very funny to see them use their instincts to carry around alcohol or other things too, hehe. I put in an instinct to start with which grants them boredom reduction when they 'get bad fruit'. This gives me a nice blank stare at the screen when they pick up the seeds. They do this from time to time on their own.. but I need them to travel with them now! The next idea that I had was to adress the norn from the seed agent and give them a stimulus (I can adress the breed specifically through a chemical). My guess was to use the 'got creatures egg' stimulus. Does this actually confuse the norns since they're not holding an egg but another thing? Or does it just give out the chemicals like assigned in their genome? Anyway, I still get the blank stare. Not even a drop in comfort, as I thought it would do :/ How could I get them to travel with the seed? Use another drive/chemical maybe? Or a whole other concept? |
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 Peppery One Papriko |
The easiest way probably would be to make them feel crowded or something to make them wander once they pick it up. Doing this directly via the stimulus might cause trouble, as it could be that they learn that being uncomfy is related to picking up. To avoid this, you could decouple the functions via some dummy chemical. Along with your normal stuff (like reducing boredom), you could inject said dummy chemical. That dummy chemical is then processed further into a nasty drive that forces them to walk somewhere else. That way you can trigger the need to wander without them ever realizing the connection. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... |
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 Malkin Manager  |
The ettin hoarding behaviour occurs partially because of a script - the ettin_muscle_paralyser.cos file. As an aside, the only official manky in the game, the Yule Booze, is actually fairly pleasant for norns - it gives them the "I have eaten fruit" and "I have drunk alcohol" stimuli, which reduces boredom. If norns have experienced entertaining manky before, then yours could prove confusing for them. My TCR Norns |
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 The Mossy Shee Jesseth |
This might be an extremely silly idea, but how about messing with the 'home smell'/homesickness aspect of things? I don't understand the particulars, but I do know that some creatures have been edited to be attracted to different scents and have those cure homesickness the same way that their home smells do.... What would the seeds need to grow and thrive? if it's something that comes with it's own smell, like maybe other plants or a specific terrain type, I bet you could tweak a norn to be attracted to those areas. It could be something like this- norn is in area where seeds are and picks one up, let's say there's lots of plants around and that means there's a lot of the plant/carb smell. A lot of things could happen from there- maybe they eat the plants, they die, or the norn just wanders off. Eventually they feel homesick so they seek out the smell of more plant life- this could be the same area, or a totally different one closer to where they ended up! If there are plants there, the terrain might be suitable for that seed to grow. Maybe just maybe they'll get distracted by the plants (food!) and drop the seed! Then it can grow anew. c: Again though, not an expert so I'm not actually sure if that's implementable, but I have a hunch it may be? The Mossy Shee & Co |
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 Gumbo |
I feel like that's an interesting start but the actual "plant scent" could be a bit of an issue. If you're picking up a seed, the plant it came from along with other plants will probably be really close by as well. It could work often, but I think that just picking up and dropping seeds would be the norm here? I'm not sure at all. I do think that the smell idea is really good though, it just sounds hard to iron out specifics :x in the spring you gotta let the flowers fully blossom |
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The Mossy Shee Jesseth |
@Gumbo Yeah it would need some additional stuff, like the genetics where carrying that particular kind of seed reduces boredom ect. You could also work with different scents like... I think that terrain types have scents? One of the things I was thinking though is that plants at least have life spans and norns can eat them, so the plant scent may move around (maybe). Also if they're approaching plants there's probably a good chance they'll drop what they're carrying because plants usually mean there's something to eat around<3 It would involve some proper testing though because you're right there's a good chance they might just wind up stuck in one plant patch! The Mossy Shee & Co |
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 Code Monkey evolnemesis |
You can give them a half-strength instinct to retreat from plants when crowded (make the instinct to retreat from norns when crowded the same strength, you'll probably need to weaken it a bit), and then a full strength instinct that picking up your seeds (or bad fruit, whatever you make them) reduces boredom... Now, if you can make the plants increase crowding when they are right on top of them, like with a stimulus on 'reached peak of smell 4 (plant)' that increases crowding... this should mean they will generally avoid being right next to any plants unless bored, and then they will go towards them to pick up the seed. If picking up the seed actually gets rid of enough of their boredom, then they will follow the crowding instinct again and retreat from the plants. Now, the stimulus will be tricky, since there is no 'got seed' or 'got manky' stim... but you can use other stims like 'got creature egg', it won't confuse them really, just give them the same stim they would get for picking up an egg... (They won't really go out of their way to pick up eggs if they don't have an instinct to get eggs, but if they do happen to pick one up randomly, they will treat the eggs the same as your seeds, that should not be too bad a side effect, though it will tend to make some other breeds of norns bring the seeds to their nest...) So, anyway, make the seed give the 'got creature egg' stimulus when picked up, and in the genetics, have that stimulus reduce boredom by a good amount... Now with their boredom gone, they will again notice an urge to get away from those plants... Now, you just need to figure out how to get them to drop them... As a simple idea, you can have the stim for 'reached peak of norn smell' give them an urge to drop what they are holding (you can do this with the 'reaction' picker in the stimulus gene, which can give a suggested action when getting that stim, and 'intensity', which is how strong the instinct to follow that reaction is, from a suggestion to a full command (I'd probably go with about halfway up the slider, but mess around with it). Since they will retreat from the plant first, and the other Norns presumably won't be hanging out right next to any of those plants, since they are crowding to them, this should help the Norns keep spreading the plants around to new places and moving around. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Gumbo |
Ohhh but that does give me an idea. Imagine gardener norns constantly bringing all kinds of seeds back to their little plant patch and just staying near it their whole lives... in the spring you gotta let the flowers fully blossom |
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 Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
I love the idea of symbiotic relationships between Creatures and plants or critters... and wish it were easier to implement this kind of thing. Getting one kind of critter or plant to interact the right way with one kind of Norn is tricky. Worth it, but tricky. Terrain types aren't actually associated with smells. There is a smell for "bodies of water" and another smell for Ettin Home, but rooms don't emit scents so the two concepts are not really associated with each other. "Ettin Home" is used by the Ettin Home agent type, and "bodies of water" is (IIRC) more or less a nutrient used by plants. Genetics also can't specify distinctions between agents of a given category (much as I've wished otherwise in the past). But then, when using code, it can also be tricky trying to target members of a specific breed. One thing you might try would be finding a chemical that isn't normally used in Creatures, and have the seed inject that chemical into the Creature when they pick it up. Normal Creatures won't notice or care--chances are the chemical will leave their bloodstream almost immediately anyways--but your breed might have genes that make them react to that chemical in a certain way (such as, converting it into a drive chemical of your choice). It would be a little reminiscent of how some plants "talk" to insects.  |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Yeah, the norns can actually only navigate to smells they can see the objects for and where that object is associated with that smell in a script, They can't navigate to environmental smells normally (although you could probably use CACL to associate one of those smells like 'nutrients' or something like that with something visible, like your plant)... Also, having something give off a smell that is inappropriate for its category (like giving off home smell for example) will confuse them, you will have to use CACL to associate the smell with that category to avoid that too. the normal 'homes' actually are visible to the creatures, and have the right smell (even though they have no sprite), which is why they can navigate to them. I like Ghosthande's idea a lot though... the plant or seed agent can inject an unknownase chemical, which will act like a pheromone, and have a reaction in them that creates some drive... you can then also alter the instincts they have to react to that drive to make them do something different (like have them seek out plants instead of norn home when they are homesick for example).. that should also make the plant less confusing to species without the proper genes. If you are thinking of going that route...this list of all the used chemicals, including custom chemicals added for breeds, should come in handy to help avoid breed conflicts. Actually, if you use receptors and emitters, or get into the SV rule brain programming, you can actually have the creatures brains and bodies to react to your pheromone chemical with ALL KINDS of different effects, from infertility to altering their decision processes, to seeing things... (See the forf->decn tract genes around gene 810 in chichis for one example using SV rules... one of them is a tract from the friend or foe lobe that inhibits their decision to hit creatures by an amount based on how much they like the other creature... UNLESS the chemical Grendel Nitrate is in their body... If they have that chemical in their body, they most likely have Grendel genetics, and won't care who they hit...) If you go through the genetics you will see examples of a few chemical receptors and emitters that talk to neurons in the brain too, you can make similar genes that will work with your pheromone chemicals, and get a whole host of possible effects. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Luzze |
Wow, thanks for all your replies and nice ideas! I just woke up and am really happy to read all the interesting approaches.Maybe I should explain what my plan for breed is so far and why I can't try out some of the ideas. The idea is to make the breed completely symbiotic with the plant I created. It grows only in the (semi)dark and the fruit ripens only if there is a change of light level. The seeds give the stim for 'eaten mankey' + a slight dose of belladonna when eaten. I tried to make norns eat them before I added proper instincts and it wasn't easy at all. Without any command they didn't eat them at all! I didn't test them with norns that got taught to eat other mankey and had positive memories of that though (as I don't have the Yule Booze ingame). Maybe I should write a warning in the plant download =X Any idea what would be a better classifier for the seeds? I don't want to use 'bad plant' as they are not carryable normaly. I thought about 'bad' for a while but I don't want to see my norns trying to carry around the hot rocks. They love to travel to the desert! The breed uses chemical 214 + an agent right now to emit light (CA1) in the strenght of chemical 214 - if they're hungry for starch or proteins. It also increases by sex drive and is decreased by stress and homesickness. They have instincts to approach plants if hungry and a very low instinct to eat the seeds. The plant checks if the chemical 214 is present in the norn and then gives the 'ate seed' stimuli and by far less belladonna than if it wouldnt be present. So far it works fine. The unripe fruit sends out the fruit CA, the norns can trace it though the metarooms, walk towards them if hungry (+ their instinct for approaching plants) with their lights on, the fruit ripes and falls down, they eat them, the light fades, they usually stick around for a while, go to sleep or play with the other plants and the new seeds from the fruit grow in darkness again. My original plan was to make 'darkness' their home. There just seems no way to adress the absence of CA 1. I tried a big workaround yesterday though an emitter since they should be able to invert the incoming light signal and give out darkness that way but any way I tried it the emitter always worked at the same way and strength in all different levels of light. Plan B is to make light their home then. Easily done, I connected 'weather' to CA 1, made all light emitters 'weather' and visible to norns. This isn't the final thing though. I'll probably just make a 'weather' agent that emits light and is freely placeable around the ship so that the breed doesn't mess too much with the official game settings. I don't need them to carry the seeds to a certain place, I don't think this would be working too well without some hardcoding like in the ettin behaviour. Just a few steps would be fine. They should pick up the seeds, continue to react to their surroundings in their usual way and drop them somewhere in between. Making them feeling crowded by plants wouldn't be what I intend them to do at all ... giving them a boost in homesickness when they pick them up would maybe also not be a great idea - and also isn't working so far. I already assigned the 'got egg' stimuli to carrying the seed and there's no change in the 'comfort' chemical. I like the idea of the mystery chemical that gets injected by the seed when carried. That way I could give them a slow building dose of crowdedness or other things. Sadly I don't understand how the brain is working. I wish I would, it would certainly open up some nice possibilities. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Ah, there is a 'light level' receptor-emitter locus that says it is deprecated, but that you can hook receptor and emitter genes to, and it does seem to work and send different values for light levels... (If you are looking for dark areas, you will want to invert it, so it is looking for light level below a certain threshold)... I used it in all my CFF norns to make them get sleepy faster in the dark. Using a CA detector and watching their sleepiness I can tell it worked... you can look at their genes to see how I did it. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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Luzze |
Luzze wrote: That was an error in the chaos coding, heh =X It works now as supposed. My progress so far: Carrying the seed now gives chemical 215 which converses into crowdedness. Also added an instinct to retreat from mankey if crowded. Result: Very cute They pick them up, wait about a second, get the crowdedness impulse, retreat a few steps and continue this as long as they hold the seeds. Only tested it on babys so far. I wonder what happens when their got egg stimulus activates when they're older.@evolnemesis: are you sure it works? i took exactly your receptor as the template and just changed the chemical. It gave out the chemical in no reaction to the CA.. |
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Code Monkey evolnemesis |
Hmm it should... I'll have to test more I guess. I was sure I saw an increase when the creature entered darker parts of the ship. But it's been a long time since I tried to test that gene, that was one of the first ones I added. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan |
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 GimmeCat |
This is giving me ideas to make a Strawberry plant for C2. Strawberry seeds are dispersed through poop... so I'm imagining the norn would eat a strawberry, and a few minutes later, they poop out a little seed.  |
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