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Development Forum standards for stimulus numbers    Lambie      4/8/2014 I'm programming a toy agent for C3DS, and found this standards guide very useful for setting the appropriate Creatures permissions. I wonder: is there a similar guide somewhere for stimulus standards? As in, what stimuli should be triggered by a certain agent genus? Is it ok for a toy to lower aggression when hit? Or what about when it's just played with? That sort of thing.   Code Monkey evolnemesis   4/9/2014 Sky's really the limit with how you want your items to stim creatures, just keep in mind that they can't really tell one object of the same type from another, so they can get confused by 'unrealistic' stimuli (for example if you make a toy that reduces anger, and they use it a lot, they will eventually expect any toy to be able to reduce their anger, and be confused when one doesn't)... Same would go for say, a gadget that gives them a food stimulus... they'd start to try using any gadget around when hungry. Also, if you want creatures to be able to navigate to and track your objects properly, it's best to make them emit the proper smell. You can even make an object which starts to give them new preferences or tendencies they wouldn't normally get (for example, giving them an object that when hit, is very fun, and also gives them some satisfaction in anger for hitting it, may tend to make your creatures a bit sadistic... they will start to associate hitting with fun, and think more of hitting anything around when they are just bored). Objects like this can also encourage tendencies you like... for example, a dispenser that stims creatures like a toy (maybe a little Kirby doll that vomits up food) will make any creatures that enjoy the 'played with toy' stim who use it begin to like using all dispensers more (and to look for them when bored). Personally, I like to start with realistic stims for the type of object I'm making as a base, so creatures at least get some of whatever they originally were looking for out of that object when they use it, and then tweak or add anything that seems reasonable for the object from there, but that's just me. you can also multiply the strength of stims or have objects that average out the effects of the different stims they give. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan   Lambie   4/9/2014 Hahaha ok, I'll use my best judgment then! I checked the cos for the robot toy and it looks like it just reduces boredom when hit, so I'll use that as a precedent. I wonder how the Mecha-Grendel in the Hardman pack works though...   Code Monkey evolnemesis   4/9/2014 yeah some of the objects in those packs do add some extra odd stimuli...Like the treehuggers' tree which is a toy but reduces fear and loneliness. not sure about the mecha-grendel, but I'd imagine it feels like a toy when hit and probably also gives the 'i've hit' stim which can help reduce anger (or else it just reduces anger straight up when played with). It may even smell a bit grendely to help attract norns when they are angry and thinking of hitting a grendel. I'd have to really just watch the chemicals kits really closely to see. The DS bouncy ball toy for example, (and I suspect most toys) just gives the played with toy stim when hit, pushed, or pulled (and maybe picked up), but that's all. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan   Lambie   4/9/2014 Thanks for the details! I'm extremely new to caos and pray, so I don't know yet if there's a way to reverse engineer an agent file to see the cos file. But once I figure it out I want to take a peak at those special breed toys. I think the digeridoo might have an usual effect as well, isn't it supposed to "calm" your Norns?   KittyTikara     4/9/2014  1 I usually use Revelation to crack open agent files. You can also extract breed images using it. Also if your new to Caos, have you tried out the tutorials here yet? They've helped me understand some of the basics of an agent. The Mobula Ray - My Creatures blog   Code Monkey evolnemesis   4/9/2014 Cool, I did not know about that program, thanks Kitty!...This thread got me curious, so I looked into the mecha grendel and it seems I was pretty much right... its a toy, that when pushed, pulled, hit, or picked up, it gives the 'played with toy' stim like any other toy, but also gives a decent reduction in anger, so norns that are angry can get out a little frustration playing with it. it doesn't smell like anything, but its pattern of movements when played with help keep a norn's attention on it and make it a good target for hitting by having it move towards them a lot to pester them (anything moving towards a norn that is feeling crowded and angry is likely to be hit, and once a norn hits it, it will start to think of hitting the toy to reduce anger, which is probably better than it hitting other norns) "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan   Lambie   4/9/2014 @KittyTikara Yes! The Resources section has been invaluable during this fumbling-around beginning stage. I'll definitely give Revelation a try when I get the chance. @evolnemesis Wow, I didn't know Mecha-Grendel reduced anger when just played with, I thought you had to hit it! Guess I still have to decide what to do about my toy. To reduce anger or not to reduce anger...   Peppery One Papriko   4/10/2014  1 I personally prefer Jagent over revelation, since Jagent can go "both ways" (i.e. compile AND decompile) and additionally also comes with a nifty little replacement for sprite builder, which behaves slightly less stupid than the original. Also, you might want to get a CAOS documentation to get started. Additionally it got some list with stuff like default stims as well. You can get it from ingame like this. I find the categorical more helpful than the alphabetic one, though. It's still easy to find certain commands when you hit Ctrl + F in your webbrowser. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...   Lambie   4/10/2014 Thanks for the tips! I'm actually already using Jagent because I'm primarily on Mac, and I discovered it can unpack agents last night almost right after my last post! Pretty convenient! I think I've decided to have my toy only reduce boredom. It's my first agent so it feels right to start a little simpler. But I'd like to experiment with other stims on my next one. Thanks for all your help, everyone!   Code Monkey evolnemesis   4/10/2014 STIM WRIT 97 1 will send the creature the 'played with toy' stim, that's what most toys use for all interactions, but I believe in the base genomes that will only reduce boredom for norns, but then again norns are the only ones that, by default, have instincts involving any objects that are classified as toys. you can also reduce boredom with the command to reduce the boredom chemical... that's how the mecha-grendel does it with anger, it reduces chemical 160 (anger) by 0.2 in all its interaction scripts, so any creature will actually get a reduction in anger from interacting with it. By doing this with boredom, you could make a toy that any creature will find fun (though again, only norns will have an instinct about it, so other species might take some prodding to get to interact with it... once they do though, they should gradually start to think its fun, and that toys are fun in general, even though that would be the only toy that will really reduce boredom for them. another fun idea is to have it stim creatures differently depending on genus, so norns and grendels might get differnt stims from it... that's actually pretty simple to pull off too, i made my first agent a toy, and while mine doesnt stim differently for different creatures (it just sends a few standard stims and the creatures genetics determine how much they like it), I made it so it will occasionally make Grendels giggle if they hit it, after it makes its little ouch noise from being hit. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan   Lambie   4/11/2014 Is that the Norn Plushie agent you posted in Downloads?   Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager     4/11/2014 To add on to what evolnemesis said: it might not be the best of ideas to use the "chem" command to reduce drives, as it doesn't teach creatures anything. There's a similar command for drives, called "driv," that does let creatures learn from an action when used. That command can essentially allow you to make a custom stimulus. That being said, it's probably better to stick with a predefined stimulus unless the object in question doesn't have an associated stimulus already (e.g. there is no "hit badcritter" stimulus). ~ The Realm ~ Risen Angel's Creatures Blog   Code Monkey evolnemesis   4/11/2014 Yeah that's it... feel free to pick apart the code, you should be able to open its agents file in a text editor and see all of it, it's pretty simple. That's a good point Grendel Man... only sending STIMs or modifying DRIVs actually affect learning.. You could of course use the CHEM commands if you want to add an effect but DON'T want them to learn from it, like if it would confuse them or change their behavior in a way you don't want. That's probably why the mecha-grendel toy uses the CHEM command for reducing anger now that I think about it... so it 'feels' just like a normal toy to the norns, but reduces anger as a silent side-effect that they don't really notice... this way they don't start to associate toys with reducing anger, and will still be willing to follow their instincts about anger and go beat up a grendel if they see it, rather than just decide to go play with a toy when they are really in danger. And yeah personally I think the numbered STIMs are best too, not just for learning or conforming with other objects, but because then the effect the creature gets from it can depend on its genetics... It's really just my opinion, but I like the idea of creatures getting their basic object preferences and effects on their drives genetically, evolving them, and using all the instincts and stimuli defined in their genes (especially once you start mixing creatures and mutations come into the picture too, you can get some interesting combinations of effects). But if you do want to make sure your object has a standard effect that doesn't change with genetics, but want the creatures to learn from that effect, then you would probably want to use DRIV. "For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love." "We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan   Malkin Manager     4/13/2014  1 I made a C3 Stimuli Notes file a while back which has some information on when the more uncommon stimuli are used, along with some information on what each stimulus is likely to do to a Civet Norn. My TCR Norns   Lambie   4/13/2014 Ooo that looks awesome!

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