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 KC11    |
Since I can't think of much else to do, I've decided to go through and recreate, as best as I can, the C1 genome in a DS norn. I'm finding a considerable amount of differences between the C1 and DS norns. For instance, many of the genes I've changed so far are Digital in C1 norns, while they are originally Analogue in DS norns. I don't know what this difference does but I suppose I will find out soon. Just a question, in terms of C1 genes was does the "cut" box mean? Is it the same as "Do not express" in DS? Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)> |
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Senior Wrangler Nutter |
Cut means the gene could be cut from the genome i.e. lost. It's not an option for those genes which are essential to basic functioning, like the genes governing brain lobes, etc. (The other options were Dup for duplication, and Mut for mutation.) |
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KC11 |
Alright, so checking it or not won't affect how the gene is expressed, just how it's passed on. Good then. Other questions: What are some DS chemical substitutes for Need for Pleasure, ConASH and DecASH? I thought Need for Pleasure was Sex Drive, but C1 does in fact have Sex Drive, and it also has Boredom so it can't be boredom. Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)> |
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KC11 |
So, a few interesting notes: C1 norns have quite a few fewer Initial Concentration genes than DS norns, namely they are missing several antibodies, ATP and Hunger concentrations Every time a C1 norn has a drive increase, they both get that drive and a punishment. Not sure how this will work with DS (I used drive backups as drive increases, hopefully that's right) Now I'm facing the problem of drive decreases in reactions, since I don't believe DS has such a chemical. Should I just wing it with unnamed chemicals? Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)> |
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KC11 |
Alright, I've reached a definite snag. I'm probably going to deal with this issue at the very end, but it is going to be a huge issue and I'm hoping a Creatures Brain Expert will be able to help me somehow. Simply put, the issue is that the way Brains are handled and displayed in C1 is completely different from the way they are in DS. So far, almost every other gene seems pretty interchangable/substitutable though. I've gone through and changed the stimulus and instinct genes. So far finished: All Emitter Genes All Instinct Genes All Stimulus Genes Some Reaction Genes Another question I've been wondering about: since C1 norns have no organs, should I go ahead and remove organs for DS norns? What is the significance of organs in DS? Edit: Oh yes, I've also been creating norns of my progressive genetic files, so far all seem to be surviving and reducing their drives quite well, though I still feel they don't have the same feel as C1 norns. Edit2: Hit a snag, my most recent norn seems to be stuck in a sleep loop. His tiredness drive is not reducing. I suspect it may have something to do with the unfinished Reaction genes. Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)> |
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 Wee Scrivener Trell |
Um... I think organs are important... ![[noddeye]](/images/smilies/emot_oddeye.gif "[noddeye]") Trell "Holy crap in a casket!" |
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 mfb |
good luck; as I understand it brains have sort of been black magic throughout the entire series. I hope DS's engine is even compatible with a simulation of the C1 brain. also, this is a really neat idea  I wonder if the ported norns will be less 'self-sufficient' than the stock c3ds ones? I always found that quality incendiary.Shee Tea Shop |
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KC11 |
For a real creature, yes, organs are very important. But as I know it for C3/DS, organs are merely there as collections of genes that can be altered at once. This is what enables realistic organ degradation in the later games. But what would happen if one removed these collections and allowed the genes to free float, essentially? I suppose it wouldn't be so hard to test...give me a moment Edit: Apparently it does absolutely nothing negative to the norn, at least so far. Everything seems to be functioning.  Edit 2: Gosh darnit, there is a problem. Her drives are doing nothing, according to the Hoverdock. However, according to Devthing she has a few drive backups going up and down. Maybe the Hoverdock can't detect these values without the organs? Or does making the organs "Do not Express" also do the same for all genes under the organ? Edit 3: I was right, using external devices it shows that her drives and general levels are all fluctuating as they normally do, so the Hoverdock probably does somehow use organs to detect drives, not sure why or how. Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)> |
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KC11 |
mfb wrote: From working with the instinct/stimuli genes, C1 norns have far fewer instinct/stimuli genes than C3/DS norns. Part of the reason is simply an increase of available items between games (such as new types of hunger, machinery, and warps) but some a bigger part of it is simply more programmed instinctual behavior that really doesn't have to be in there. Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)> |
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KC11 |
Alright, apparently organs are more important than I thought, because that tester norn has not aged for one hour, meaning the Timeline genes are not working, meaning most likely the other genes are not working. First, I tried outright deleting the organ genes. No change. Then, I tried to make a "megaorgan" to encompass all the orphaned genes. Nothing changed, and the norn's brain died randomly. What. I'm gonna put this project away for tonight. Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)> |
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 Leporidae |
This is going to be a completely insane suggestion, but what if you gave every individual gene it's own organ? It'd be a pain to do, and you'd probably murder the x-ray agent and the hoverdock doing it (if not the game itself), but it'd be interesting to see! |
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KC11 |
It sounds like a good idea, but the genetics kit will shut down if you add too many genes to it, and I'm sure essentially doubling the number of genes will break it. I know this because I've gone over the limit already and often lost a bunch of work and raged at the computer. Do not upset the ugly worm, lest it be a dragon in disguise. (>oo)> |
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Senior Wrangler Nutter |
NFP is Need For Pleasure - essentially, unhappiness, but expressed in chemical form. As I understand it, this is the opposite of the way real animals work - kind of anti-oxytocin, if you like. Rather than getting warm fuzzies from nice stuff, norns get a lack of warm fuzzies by default, which drives them to do stuff. The punishment chemical was so that norns would learn that raising a drive is a Bad Thing - they have instincts that reward them for lowering drives, which feeds into the learning system. But they don't know from the egg. It also gives the possibility for interesting effects through mutation, by putting an extra step into the equation. Can't help much with the specific C3 stuff as I don't know much about the biochemistry, but the impression I got was that organs were somehow hard-coded, i.e. the game works in such a way as to require them. Could be completely wrong there though. |
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 Bifrost |
I'm thinking you might want to keep SOME of the DS features, just because they've been added to give more depth, while making the norns behave genetically more like in C! is a brilliant idea. Have you compared your work to the CFE/Gizmo/CFG genomes? At least the CFG is supposed to make the norns more C1-ish, though I'm not sure if it's finished yet. When you're done, I'd love to test them out in an Albian ReGenesis wr. |
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 Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
It's a shame that you haven't found a way to scrap the organs. I thought the "megaorgan" would work. If you do ever get it working, you might want to make it less susceptible to minor toxins. A creature can survive without many of its organs, but if the "megaorgan" died, that would be it. |
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Senior Wrangler Nutter |
Is there any handy reference for C2 or C3 organs, how they work and what kills them off? |
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 Malkin Manager |
Another thing that makes norns more C1-like is changing the pregnancy length - NimhsLab recently posted up some norns like this, with a 10 min pregnancy and a 15 minute recovery. My TCR Norns |
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 Tarlia |
Totally agree about the pregnancy length. My C1 norns breed like rabbits as it is, C3/DS norns breed more like... bacteria. It's far too easy. I agree that not all the DS features should be scrapped, though. It IS a different game after all, and it seems like a norn with ONLY C1 genes in place might not really work properly. |
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