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 Geek2Nurse    |
I'm wondering if anyone has ever built a Skinner Box for training norns, to see what their full learning potential really is? It seems like a natural progression for something like this, but maybe that's my engineer-turned-psych NP brain's idea of "natural," and not necessarily a normal one. I'd sure like to play with the idea, though. If no one has done it, I've got a lot of DNA/CA/CAOS learning to do, because I think it's something that absolutely NEEDS to be done. --- Optimist: the glass is half full. Pessimist: the glass is half empty. Engineer: the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. |
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 Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
I want one of these! I think you'd need to code it. |
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 Jagotka |
I love the idea. Unfortunately, I lack the skills to pull off such a project. Creatures tumblr Blog:Methods of Creatures Madness |
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 Horstj |
The infirmary metaroom would do, it is small and has no objects norns can interact with of its own. All you need to do is puting a norn (or any other creature) and a dumb* vendor inside. (and hope that your creature pushes the vendor, instead of aimlessly standing around untill it starves to death). * one that only gives food when actually pushed, quite easy to code
And yes, you can use the same species number for both the vendor and the food! |
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Geek2Nurse |
Cool, that's a starting place. I'd like to come up with various things to try to teach norns, too, besides just pushing a lever...same concept as the basic Skinner box, just used for conditioning other behaviors. I need to learn more about what they're actually capable of to come up with ideas of what to try to teach them... I think I'd want to come up with a control panel for delivering the reward stimulus more reliably than trying to tickle the born with the hand, like a button to push for "reward," and maybe even settings to allow for different rewards -- tickling, feeding, or whatever. It's all still cooking in my brain, which is okay since I've barely begun to learn what I'd need to know to implement it! --- Optimist: the glass is half full. Pessimist: the glass is half empty. Engineer: the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. |
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 AquaShee |
1) Get the ABS Vendor 2) Put it in empty room with Norn 3) ??? 4) Profit! The ABC fruits give a direct dose of reward to the Norns so they'll get fixated on getting more and more fruit rather easily. This even happens when there are lots of distractions about. At some point they'll stop (possibly because of getting full or bloated, dunno if Norns ever get truly full) though. The Community Scribble: make (y)our own metaroom! |
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Geek2Nurse |
I'd like to teach them other things, too... modified Skinner boxes can be used to isolate and reward and then build on all sorts of behaviors. Put toy in basket, or bounce ball, or maybe iterations to eventually lead to "stack blocks to use as climbing tool to reach high fruit."  --- Optimist: the glass is half full. Pessimist: the glass is half empty. Engineer: the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. |
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Horstj |
"stack blocks to use as climbing tool to reach high fruit." I'm not sure weather a norns brain can handel that, but I'm sure it would be fun to see... |
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Geek2Nurse |
That's one of my problems...I don't really know enough about their capabilities, which makes it hard to think of ideas for things to try to teach them. I remember when C1 first came out, though, an interview with the programmers that talked about them seeing two norns bouncing a ball back and forth to each other and their resulting surprise, because that wasn't something they had programmed them to learn...which makes me wonder, what else might they be capable of, and how can we find out? Maybe I should start a thread for people to post interesting/unusual things their norns have done, for ideas!--- Optimist: the glass is half full. Pessimist: the glass is half empty. Engineer: the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. |
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 Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
I'm not sure that was learning so much as a coincidence, though. You see all kinds of neat things if you play the game long enough, but they're rarely intentional on the Norn's part. So far as I'm aware Norns are incapable of learning "sequences". Such as the sequence "push vendor > eat food". That's why you'll see a (DS) Norn push the carrot vendor a million times, then complain about being hungry, but not eat any of the carrots.  |
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Horstj |
Would it be possible to edit theire brains so that they can learn sequences? something like: simulus: "Just pushed vendor" increases instinct "pick up and eat food" |
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Geek2Nurse |
I thought I read something about sequences being done using 50% drives...something about the "push vendor" drive being 50% of the strength of the "eat food" drive so that when the food appeared they'd stop pushing the vendor and eat it. I'm still absorbing stuff; I think I'm probably a very long way from being able to do norn brain surgery yet! --- Optimist: the glass is half full. Pessimist: the glass is half empty. Engineer: the glass is twice as big as it needs to be. |
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Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
That is how it was designed, but it works on the assumption that the Norn will be smart enough to recognize eating food as being the best of the two actions. This basic decision making skill seems to be beyond the grasp of many a Norn. |
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Horstj |
I think I'm probably a very long way from being able to do norn brain surgery yet! Messing around wiht a norns brain is not very complicated... making a smarter (or at least captable of surviving) norns is! Once I took a basic Chi-Chi genome and set all(!) genes to maximum mutationrate, even theire brains (which are normally not mutating at all), I ended up with some eggs getting auto killed, some immortals (who never got bored or hungry and where not able to move) and loads of fast dieing babynorns. Maybe I should recreate that experiment using norns with only theire brains being altered... |
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Ettina |
I was working on items coded to be misleading (food classed as toys, for example) to test their ability to learn how to go against their instincts. But sadly, I suck at CAOS. By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do. |
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