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Development Forum confusing agents - new IQ test    Ettina   10/9/2011 Danikat designed an IQ test for norns, but it mostly tests navigation skills. I was thinking of a test of learning, as an alternate way to assess norn intelligence. Basically, you'd have a bunch of different agents that give the wrong stimulus for what category they're classified as. Toys that look like food, etc. You stick a creature in with a bunch of these agents and see if they learn to go against their instincts. Then for an added test you could return them to the Norn Meso and have them unlearn all that stuff! So, anyone know of some good agents that give the wrong stim for their classification? I don't want anything too fatal (I decided against the Garbage Dump for that reason). I also don't want things that give the regular stimulus but directly inject unexpected chemicals. By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do.   Peppery One Papriko   10/10/2011 I am not sure if this will be that good. Most of the instincts are there for a good reason, so going against them is... not sure how to say? Pointless? Stupid? I can't find the right word. On the other hand... WHEN they learn to go against that, they will stay like that. If they understand that they can eat that toy-food, then they will keep doing it. When you present them normal toys afterwards, they'll try to eat those too and normal food gets ignored. Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...   AquaShee   10/10/2011 Actually Ettina's idea is very good. The categories are just labels so norns can identify what something is. If you make a room where all toys are edible and cheese is bouncy fun, only a Norn that is good at learning would manage to overcome its basic instincts and adapt to its new diet. Putting these smart Norns back in the 'real world' should have them adapt back after a while. Most regular C3 norns would just keep trying to gnaw on their inedible bouncy cheese because they're all about instincts. Sadly, the standard C3/DS world and a lot of metarooms and agents already mess with Norns in this way. To a norn, there is no difference between a carrot or a hunk of cheese. they can't tell colour or size or smell, only that they're both labelled 'Food.' But still everyone insists on making all sorts of foods and toys and stuff that act differently. Some food makes a norn hot or cools it down or gives it medicine... Some toys decrease loneliness or crowdedness, some toys can be hit while others can't... Norns can't tell the difference between those things, so they can't truly learn to use objects in a smart way. If all agents of the same category would have the same effect on a Norn, only then would norns be able to truly learn about their environment without getting all confused. So what would be neat is if there was a metaroom with agents that work one way and one way only, so Norns can learn and play to the fullest. You could then add a button to randomize the catergory numbers and weed out the ones that don't adapt. The Community Scribble: make (y)our own metaroom!   Gumbo   10/10/2011 This would be freakin hilarious. Norns finally get to eat elevator XD in the spring you gotta let the flowers fully blossom   Malkin Manager     10/10/2011 It would most likely be kindest to try this out with instinctless creatures, as they are all about learning. AquaShee, I'd add on another problem to yours - in that not all agents have a very full range of actions that they allow creatures to perform on them. It's very hard to learn when whatever you do gives you no response. My TCR Norns   AquaShee   10/11/2011 Yeah, exactly Malkin. A way around it would be having a general script for every number. Adding a script labelled "scrp 2 21 0 12" would make all objects of category 21 edible even if they don't have an eat script. (You'd also have to set the BHVR though) The Community Scribble: make (y)our own metaroom!   Malkin Manager     4/18/2012 For the confusing agents, if it was to give a 'eaten fruit' stim, it would be pickupable and edible only, like a fruit should be, but be called 'toy' or 'gadget' or 'machinery'? If it was to give an 'I have played with toy' stimulus, it would be pushable and pullable and pickupable only, like a toy should be, but be called 'fruit' or 'seed' or 'food'? My TCR Norns   Prodigal Sock Ghosthande     4/18/2012 Pushable/pullable/pickupable is determined by ATTR and BHVR and the agent's own scripts. What it's called ('fruit' or 'seed' or 'food') is determined by its classifier. The only thing the stimulus does is determine which set of cues the Norn's body receives, and the actual cues are determined by the Norn's genome. So I can give a plant a 'played with toy' stim, but it's called a plant because its classifier says so, unless I use CATO to specify a different name. Whether it can be picked up, pulled, etc. by creatures is determined by what I set its BHVR to be. The 'played with toy' stim basically triggers a response in the Norn's brain, but as you've seen from studying genomes, what exactly happens when that stim is received might vary from one Norn to another.   Malkin Manager     4/29/2012 For consideration: A 'confusing ball' - looks and smells like a seed (blue), fruit (yellow), and food (red), but acts like the high-bounce rubber ball. Would it interfere with the test too much if a hypothetical vendor, like the mini empathic vendor, automatically spat out the right foodstuff for each drive? My TCR Norns   Ettina   4/30/2012 This is great, thanks. I'd like edible stuff that looks inedible as well, but I suppose there's edible stuff already that standard chichis rarely eat, such as critters and leaves. Any good things that produce edible leaves without making seeds/fruit/food? By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do.   Malkin Manager     4/30/2012 I've also made that 'confusing vendor' as well. My TCR Norns   Ettina   5/1/2012 Thanks! I'll get to work trying those out. (Seriously, I really appreciate this.) By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do.   Malkin Manager     5/1/2012 Please let me know if you need them tweaked further to better test what you need to test. I always really enjoy reading your experiments, I'm glad I can help! My TCR Norns   Ettina   5/1/2012 Well, I tried them out, putting a few norns in the Agent Room (empty room for injecting C3-only agents into DS) with only the confusing agents to interact with. Clever little guys, they figured it out pretty fast. This may be a nonfatal IQ test for most norns, you could instead use 'first correct use' for each agent. I've got it running with an automatic screen capture program right now, I'll do some experiments with it. The confusing agents work great. The only thing I might suggest as an improvement is to have them inject in the Comms room instead of the bottom of the Meso. That way they'd be easier to move elsewhere - you don't want a norn interacting with the confusing agents and normal versions at the same time. By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do.

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