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Development Forum Making CFG Norns   1 | 2 Feddlefew      3/16/2012 I have a couple of questions and a small request I want to make of the CC... 1. Is there a Mac OS X 10.6 + genetics kit for C3/DS lurking around somewhere? 2. I like both gizmo and CFE norns, and I was wondering if anyone had ever taken the CFE brain genetics and added them to the gizmo genome. If I had a genetics kit that worked with my computer I'd try to do it myself, but if there isn't one that is compatible with my computer I'd, erm, like to know if anyone is willing to give it a shot for me? I've been playing around with LiveGMS and I like it so far. I started with my CFE-to-Gizmo conversion, but I've run into a problem where the gene numbers don't seem to be lining up and I can't figure out which organs some of the receptors associate with, especially the ones for prostaglandin. For now I'm just calling them Creatures Full of Gizmo, because the only thing I'm actually doing is copying someone else's edits from one genome to another. >_>; I might increase their lifespan and make a few other minor tweaks once I'm done.   Malkin Manager     3/16/2012 LiveGMS is the only Mac-compatible DDNA editor I've found thus far. My TCR Norns   Feddlefew   3/20/2012 I'll give it a try for now. What would it take to make a mac compatible one?   Malkin Manager     3/20/2012 It would probably be easier to incorporate the Gizmo Norn genes into a CFE norn, rather than the other way around. My TCR Norns   Feddlefew   3/20/2012 That was the plan. Do chichi and C3 norn breeds all have identical genomes?   Malkin Manager     3/20/2012 The Chichi have some adjustments - the level of wounded from falling is lessened, for example - and they have instincts and stimuli to pushing portals. There's a more detailled listing in German on Creatures Unlimited. My TCR Norns   Feddlefew   3/23/2012 I updated the OP and have started working on them. I might not be reading the gizmo gene breakdown right but the gene number arn't lining up. Edit: Yep. I was reading the breakdown wrong, although the genes seem to be off by 1 between the gizmo and CFE genomes.   Malkin Manager     3/25/2012 I believe the CFE norns have an extra gene, which causes the numbering to be slightly different between the gizmo and CFE genomes. My TCR Norns   Feddlefew   3/25/2012 I thought so. I finished most of the changes and I'm going back through to get the genes I missed. I found some weird changes in the CFE Chichi file I was using- all of the stimulus genes for food types gave pain instead of the correct nutrients, and all instances where the Wounded chemical (90) was supposed to be were replaced with chemical 49. I'm also not certain how the instincts should be read in LiveGMS. When it says "Instinct Reinforcement: -(value)", is that building a connection or breaking down the connection?   Malkin Manager     3/25/2012 The official tutorials do not explain this - perhaps it's something that's explained in the official kit. My TCR Norns   Feddlefew   3/25/2012 A quick google search brought up plenty of information for instincts in creatures 1 & 2, but not for C3/DS norns. It looks like way instinct genes function has changed between games, too.   N1     6/24/2012 @Feddlefew: As far as I remember the reinforcement in instinct genes mimics a drive reaction to an action. So while the norn is sleeping, a specific instinct gene stimulates up to three neurons in the norn's brain. For some of the lobes (attention and drive for example), you can find out what the individual neurons mean in one of the catalogue files that come with the game. Now the norn "feels" like it actually is in the situation that's represented by those three neurons and chooses an action to respond to it. Once the norn chooses (in its "dreams" ) the action that's set in the instinct gene, a reinforcement reaction will be generated. Let's say the reinforcement drive is set to "pain". Then a negative reinforcement level would mean that the action choosen by the norn reduces pain, while a positive value would simulate an increase of pain in response to the action. The exact consequences this has for the learning process depend on the SV rules of the brain lobes. Usually, an increase in a drive (*positive* reinforcement level) leads to negative weights in the concept lobe. Therefore the norn will try to *avoid* taking the action in the instinct whenever it finds itself in the emulated situation. A decreasing drive (*negative* reinforcement level) on the other hand will make the norn choose this action more often when in the specified situation. If you still have the issue with the gene numbering in LiveGMS and can find a way to reproduce it please let me know. There might be an actual bug in there. I remember I modified something in the gene numbering when I moved LiveGMS over to my own server because something was wrong, but I don't remember exactly what it was. Would have to look at the code...   Ettina   7/11/2012 That reminds me, I should finish making the CFE Draconians. Hopefully they'll be easier to raise than regular Dracs. By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do.   Prodigal Sock Ghosthande     7/13/2012 Wow thanks for the explanation N1, I always wondered how dreaming worked. Ettina, I'd love to see them when you finish them! Maybe (if you're working on them) you could start a thread and tell us a little about them? New CFE breeds are always so exciting.   Feddlefew   4/27/2013  1 I'm thinking of restarting this project, although now instead of trying to combine the two genomes (Because it's been done since I was last here, thanks Kezune!) I want to try improving on them a bit. Right now some of the basic changes I am making include slowing aging down a little and making pregnancies last longer, dispersing the coloration genes through the genome, and giving them some resistance to ATP decoupler. Later I plan on taking this "generic" genome for CFGs and adding some small changes for each breed.   Air Guitarist kezune     4/27/2013 You should do it. : D I've only laid down the basics and would love to see this built on (and improved!). Bear in mind that I did NOT include the ChiChi pose genes in the breeds that I posted because, well. They aren't ChiChis. XD I haven't even touched the mall breeds so I'd love to see what you come up with when you start doing improvements. Updated Rehosting Policy[/title]   Feddlefew   4/27/2013 This is what I have so far for the first part of the project: =====Stage 1==== Create a base genome for all CFG norns. -Evenly space out the pigment and swap genes throughout the genome. (will this make them incomparable with other breeds?) +Decrease the mutation rate for coloration genes that are after the baby lifestage. (tentatively x.5) Remove or silence that extraneous blue pigment gene. -Add slower aging and longer pregnancies, so that they usually reach adulthood at around 1hr 30 minutes. +Do halflife calculations and decide on a maximum lifespan. +Figure out what is needed for longer pregnancies and how long is reasonable for them. -Add ATP dcplase resistance genes. +Creatures should be in danger from an encounter with ATP Dcplase, but it shouldn't be a death sentence. +Possibly have creatures maintain low levels of the cure for ATP Dcplase, which reacts with ATP Dcplase to make more of itself + pain or tiredness. +Decide on the halflife for the ATP Dcplase, needs to be long enough that the norn has at least an hour of protection, but not a lifetime. -Make sure the Youth stage is when norns begin to have a sex drive, even if they can't mate yet. +Fix genome so norns have a youth stage. +Adjust time between lifestages. -May make the stress genes turn on earlier. =========== Any sugestions or advice is welcome.   Bifrost   4/27/2013 Why the longer pregnancies and life spans?   Feddlefew   4/27/2013 I'm trying to make their life cycle more like the C1 norns. I like norns that age slower, because it gives the hand more time to interact with them and it puts more selective pressure on good survival skills, so I guess it's just a personal preference. The longer pregnancy thing is because it always annoyed me that the C3/DS norns could have three or four pregnancies in 20 minutes, and because it decreases the number of eggs they can lay with a fertile period of ~6 hours.   Bifrost   4/27/2013 Sounds very reasonable. And the more "back to C1" the better, in my opinion.   Feddlefew   4/27/2013 Right now I'm trying to decide how best to disperse the color genes. So, the ways I could do it right now are: -Sort them into R-B-G-S/R groups, and distribute them so that all the genes for one pigment type are clustered together. This will mean that all the genes for one pigment type are very likely to be inherited together, and will make the pigment genes easier to locate. -Sort them into R-B-G-S/R groups, and then put some space between each group of sex-related genes. Like the above, but increases the chance that mutations to different sex's and lifestage's pigments will be inherited separately. -Evenly space all color genes through out the genome. While this means that all of the genes will be basically inherited separately, it's messy and might be harder for future projects to find them. By the way, does anybody know what the approximate distance on the gene list that a given pair of genes need so that there's a decent chance for them to be inherited separately? I can do the calculations myself if I know how many crossover points the breeding scrips use.   Bifrost   4/27/2013 I find it very annoying with great colour changes between life stages of a creature. Slight changes, ok, but having a creature start off blue as a baby, and then look plain brown as an adult, that just doesn't look natural. And it's disappointing. Gender dimorphism is cool enough though. But too great age dimorphism is not. So I wouldn't vote for the second way. Not as it appears at the moment, anyway.   Feddlefew   4/27/2013  1 I think I'll just silence the pigment genes that turn on after the baby stage, so that color baby norns have will stay. I've halved the mutation rate already for those genes anyway. Also, there's a weird blue pigment gene for youth only. I'm not certain why it's the only pigment for that stage, actually, unless it's a displaced gene from adolescence. I might turn it into a S/R gene an leave it on, so that color shifts as the norn goes through puberty can still happen.   Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager     4/27/2013  1 While we're on the subject of pigment changes: Note that a creature must have pigment and pigment bleed genes for all lifestages if you want it to keep its color for its entire life in C3 standalone. If you don't care about C3 standalone, then I guess you can ignore this, but it is something to consider. ~ The Realm ~ Risen Angel's Creatures Blog   Feddlefew   4/27/2013 So if I silence the color genes for all lifestages except baby and youth, anyone norns that are in just C3 will loose color for the other lifestages, but in DS the previous lifestage's color will be displayed instead? Edit: Also, is there a particular reason why the most of the stress emitter and receptor genes (290-326) only turn on in youth? Or are these the ones that effect congenital mutations?   Sanely Insane RisenAngel Manager     4/27/2013 Pretty much, yes - norns in C3 standalone will lose their color once they hit childhood, but then gain it back in youth (or gain a different color, depending on the genetic values), but then lose it again when they hit adulthood and remain that way until they die. In DS, they'll just keep their babyhood color up until the youth stage (unless the youth values are the same as the babyhood values), and then keep their youth coloration until they die. As for the stress thing - apparently, CL thought it more realistic that youth and older norns get stressed while younger norns don't. ~ The Realm ~ Risen Angel's Creatures Blog   Feddlefew   4/27/2013 Hmmm. Is there another way to make norns keep their colors for most of their lives? Otherwise I'll go with my original plan and make a note about C3 standalone problems. As for the stress thing: That... Doesn't make sense. Babies and Toddlers get stressed pretty easily. Wouldn't that effect learning? I have an experiment to run...   Feddlefew   4/29/2013 I've started working on the ATP decoupler (Dcplase) resistance genes. I think the first thing to do is slow down the rate at which ATPD converts ATP to ADP, so that they have a chance to purge it from their systems before keeling over. I'm thinking that without any cure in there system, it should take about a minute to kill them. The normal rate for this reaction is 11. Does this work like half lives or does it use a different system? Edit: I should probably clarify that I intend for a very large amount of ATP Decoupler (like 100 unites) to be lethal, but infection from a bacteria that secretes it to not be.   Bifrost   4/30/2013 What is ATP, ATD, ATPD and Dcplase?   Air Guitarist kezune     4/30/2013 ATP is basically what your creature needs to stay alive. Energy is stored in ATP and the creature uses that energy. When ATP's energy is used, it becomes ADP. ATPD and Dcplase are the same thing. ATPD is a toxin that takes the energy out of ATP and basically kills the creature. Updated Rehosting Policy[/title]   Peppery One Papriko   4/30/2013 ATPD? The D is Decoupler? Well yeah, ususally that is an instant kill. People never really managed to balance it. Either Norns just directly die or they (i.e. some third-party breeds) can pretty much ignore it. Cyanide was a similar case I believe... Lets play plants! Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis... Photosynthesis...   Air Guitarist kezune     4/30/2013 What Papriko said. The Apple Norns are supposed to have a mild resistance to Cyanide but instead, they can be pumped full of it with no ill effect. Updated Rehosting Policy[/title]   Feddlefew   4/30/2013 In real life, cyanide resistance comes from not metabolizing cyanide precursors into cyanide. Or metabolizing it into something else very quickly and sequestering it. Free cyanide kills anything with an electron transport chain if it gets the chance to accumulate. Unfortunately, I don't think any breeds use a system like this for handling toxins. The game treats ATP Dcp like an enzyme, which is one of the reasons it's so lethal- it doesn't get used up while it breaks down ATP. I've fiddled with the rate genes for ATP Dcp so that it works much slower (I think it should now take about 30 sec for a small dose to be fatal) and I changed the toxin/antitoxin reaction from [1 Medicine One + 1 ATP Dcp -> Nothing] to [Medicine One + ATP Dcp -> 3 Medicine One + (N) Muscle Toxin]. I'll probably need to increase the reaction rate, but the cascading effect should render norns temporarily immune to the worst of it. As long as the initial dose is small, anyway.   Feddlefew   5/1/2013 Can anyone recommend me a good metaroom to replace the medical bay? My disc drive seems to be broken.   Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager   5/1/2013 I don't think you can inject The Infirmary without Creatures 3, but it's worth a shot.   Feddlefew   5/1/2013 It works. I actually just cam to post that i'd solved the problem. 8^) To get it working you need to use the dummy agent room to inject it, and then after injecting it you just click on the door out to auto kill it. ------ The receptor gene I put in doesn't seem to be working. The test group seem to be always starving for protein.   prev | 1 | 2 | next

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