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| Redesign C3/DS! (fun thought exercise) | |
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Liam
  

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1/5/2014 | 1 |
On my break from work these past few weeks, I\'ve been playing around with a thought exercise. If I could design a Creatures game (within the framework of the DS engine, as a necessary restriction), how would it work?
This has been super interesting, and made me examine what about the series I find fun, and what about it I dislike/am bored by.
I know a lot of you have ideas about how you\'d redesign Creatures gameplay, so as a group thought exercise: how would you do it? What would you keep, what would you change, and what would you omit? How would you make the game more accessible to a contemporary audience? Would you go down the C3/DS route (more impersonal) or try to go to a more C1/2 style (much more personal)?
Nothing will ever come of this, but it\'s fun to think about!
- Liam / K'aeloree
Spellhold Studios, a Baldur's Gate II, Neverwinter Nights and Oblivion Modding Community |
 Senior Wrangler
Nutter
    
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1/5/2014 | |
Interesting questions. For me, more personal, with as little as possible of the creatures' response hard-coded - essentially going the C1 route, but with much upgraded biology/biochemistry. I'd also change the breeding back to something rather less cut-and-dried than it is in C3, which would have the benefit of reducing the overpopulation problems. Or keep it the same hit rate but change the female response to stress (re-absorption of embryo, etc.) so that breeding didn't automatically equal egg-laying.
I love the way the ecology concept was developed for C3, but it falls a bit flat because norns aren't a part of it - there are so many agents that can support norn life that you can remove all the ecology and continue as before, pretty much. It'd be nice to see creatures supplying some waste product that was actually required by certain plants/critters to grow, and see that feeding back into the norns/grendels somehow (it may be this has already been done, but I'm not aware of it). It'd need some way for the creatures to have a sense of their environment, and also for CAs to be properly implemented.
What are you meaning by "contemporary audience"? People who've never encountered any of the series? I think going the less hard-coded route - which to me, seems to encourage more "personality" in individual norns - might do that. Interactivity is good; the problem with C3 creatures is that they can survive on their own, and the distinguishing features are markings rather than behaviours, which I think has led to the attraction of feral runs. That's not really going to draw new people in. C1 was a nice balance of having to interact with the norns to keep them going, without the death-in-20-minutes insanity of C2. |

Dreamnorn
    
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1/5/2014 | |
Interesting thought exercise. As someone whose primary interest in life is evolutionary biology and ecology, I have a lot to consider!
I probably won't go off a C3DS engine for this, though, as my ideas would probably work better in a 3D-style world like Creatures Online's Sphericus. While I'll reference all the games in the series, I think if I were to visually incorporate what I want into the game, I would do it in CO's style because it makes more sense.
Anyhow!
Biochemistry: As the Creatures series progressed, it got steadily more complicated biochemistry. Ever since I began learning the basics of it and not just thinking "cute fuzzy critter" every time I saw my norns, this aspect has been fascinating to me. I would want to build upon the C3DS ideal of biochemistry, using their preset version as a base.
Ecology: I concur with Nutter's opinion on C3DS ecology and how I wish norns/grendels/ettins would be a more integral part of it. As such, if I were to redesign a Creatures game and make it my own, I would want there to be a sense of where norns are in the great biome of their surroundings. They shouldn't just be "there" the same way they are in the main series -- they should be part of the interconnected workings of their world. (To be fair, I can forgive the Creatures series for less-interconnected ecology due to the fact that norns had supposedly died off or remained dormant until the Hand came along. They technically wouldn't have a niche if that's the case, but I'd like to start a game where they're already a piece of it and the player is trying to guide "another" norn settlement, knowing that there's more out there and they already have a set of instincts and urges according to their environmental role.)
Natural Selection: You know how in CO, norns will be able to pass down traits like color, skin-tone, patterns, fur lengths, etc. down to their offspring? I would want to operate on this system more than I would the splice-and-dice method of the previous entries in the series. I'd want there to sufficient danger in my norn's world for a reasonable number of them to be picked off for whatever reasons (drowned; ate a poison berry; grendel attack; etc.), but not so much that norns would be incapable of overcoming the obstacles or learning how to fight/avoid them. In terms of biochemistry and not just visuals, I'd want there to be a mutation rate similar to that of humans and other mammals in order to simulate slight changes in the species over time, and would like it accessible via a "kit" as in C1/C2 or through a "profile" as in C3DS.
Evolutionary Capability: Let's face it -- at some point, you've wondered what would happen if your norns, grendels, or ettins evolved and what species would they turn into. I would totally make this able to happen, but not for a long time. After doing some math related to human evolution (I'd actually been working on that for hours the other day because I felt like it), the average number of generations to obtain a new derived species is 17,360. That's quite a number, but it's not unreachable! I once got a norn that was generation 32,000+ in the Warp, so it can totally happen. But my thought is, at this number, players should get a congratulatory message and the genome of norns in that generation would serve as the basis for a new species that the player can name. That new species cannot reproduce anymore with generation-one norns, but the higher generation of norn a person may have, the more likely it is that the species can mix. You may even be able to breed multiple different species by taking a few 17,360+ gen "newbreds" and some higher-gen norns and make tons of possibilities! (Whether those multiple possibilities, however, can interbreed is a question of probability in compatibility... I wouldn't know ).
Lifespan: I always liked norns that have a lifespan on the longer side. I figure that 7 hours is a ripe old age for a smart norn, but if they're well-taken care of and have good genes, they can go as high as 12 or even 18 hours.
Population Limitations: I liked how C2 was pretty much a sandbox and didn't really have a population limit (except, what with norns dying so fast, this usually doesn't mean much). I also liked how DS had a set population limit, but I disliked the way that they had a breeding limit on top of it. If it were my game, I would make it so that the player can limit the population number at any given time (perhaps between 4 and 100 or something, depending on the size of the world) so they can control the maximum norns at once, but there would be no breeding limit.
Language: I honestly always liked the norn language as it is. It's simple enough to convey a message, but not complex enough to require trillions of lines of code. I, for one, would keep the structure of the language and communication in between creatures and between creatures and the Hand as-is.
Creature-Hand Interactivity: C3DS norns' independence is fun to watch in feral runs, but not much else. I always thought that C1 and C2 were more personal, and I would like to take this personal aspect back. I want the baby norns to be... well, babies. While babies of some species don't require much time to develop, considering the mental capacity of norns in relation to IRL monkeys, I think it should take a while of some dependence on the hand/older creatures for guidance before a norn is completely self-sufficient -- perhaps somewhere between 1-1.5 hours, when the norn would go from being a child to an adolescent. Even then, they may need your help!
Accessibility: Of course, the game would have to be accessible for the people who aren't necessarily interested in the biology but who are more interested in just enjoying the game and raising the norns. I rather like Fishing Cactus's approach with CO (though I'd give all norns tails and male norns horns ). Beautiful 3D graphics are probably a must given today's standards, but the game should also have a simple interface, perhaps something compact as in C3DS, with options of delving into the biology for people like me.
Third-Party Content: Umm. Have you guys seen all the cool things the CC has done? This is just a resounding "YES." If it were my game, I'd release some kind of program to help people make agents, breeds, etc.
tl;dr. I'd make the game awesome.
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 Lodestar
Doringo
   

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1/5/2014 | 1 |
I would totally add:
Generation high scores: The highest generation you ever reached is recorded as a personal goal. Generations through splicing do not count for the high score. So basically if I got a gen2 through splicing and breeded it for a while and in the end I had a gen10 norn, it would class as gen9 in the HS.
Norn clans This isn't a clans/guilds thing like most people might expect it to be, but I would just love to see certain packs or tribes of norns that can migrate to places as one by following an alpha or leader to where he/she wanders. They would be a togglable option or player-declared for gameplay.
Disasters Ever wondered what might happen if a meteor-fragment struck Albia? You should be able to get certain strange parts from these.
Minerals I'm not saying I'd make it a mining game, but having mineral stocks for agent creators might be pretty cool. Especially for making rare agents that might require certain elements only obtainable from meteorites.
Day/Night cycle Even onboard a space ship, I would love to see a terrarium-simulated day/night cycle or perhaps the ship passes around to the dark side of Sphericus. As for on a planet it should be obvious.
Unlockable agents By finding/generating schematics you could have an unlockable agent system that lets you unlock new gadgets through C2/C3-style gameplay.
Scheduled events So let's say ever 10 hours of gameplay a solar eclipse happens on Albia? A scheduled event system like that might allow predictable yet preparable events.
Oxygen system This one is alot more scientific. What if creatures had an inbuilt oxygen/gasses system? So certain areas might be less habitable than others and so instead of being like a spray, the trump stump clouds for example only give toxins when inhaled?
There are so many things I can think of. |

TigerCivet
  
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1/5/2014 | |
I really love Doringo's idea of disasters. It would make the game less a routine and give it some interest aspects for you to keep your eyes on the world rather than keeping it on the wolfing run modus.
I would like to see meteorites, storms (like thunder in Creatures Adventures: with real lightning that can cause the norns to act weird or loose there ability to speak or something) and it would be cool if the water would turn wild as well, with some big fishes that would appear and would make the world a more dangerous place.
And how about some diseases that could cause norns to walk really difficult, or having a bad looking fur.
It would be pretty cool too if there would be more ways to make your world more personal, with more fully adaptable metarooms which you can set in tue beginning and flowers you can plant and havind elevators in different styles, like a fantasy style or more like a horror movie 
I also want the haircuts to be a different part of the head, so there will be different faces with different haircuts and you can unlock more haircuts when you reach a certain generation level. Or maybe you will unlock a completely new norn breed when you receive a new generation level
This was it for now, I am writing al this on my mobile phone so it has already taken me enough time  |
 Lodestar
Doringo
   

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1/5/2014 | |
I totally forgot to mention...
Albian tornadoes!
Earthquakes!
Minor volcanic eruption!
Solar flares!
Solar flares would be pretty interesting actually. Maybe it should jam the usage of all radio machines? Infact you probably could simulate that with paus 1.
I have another idea also. What about getting new worlds/metarooms when you get enough norns? That happened in the creatures PS1 and creatures gameboy!
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TigerCivet
  
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1/7/2014 | |
Yes, that would be pretty cool too, I have to admit 
I played Creatures for the gameboy and I liked the aspect that you had to take a couple of norns through the gate to discover a new world. But only if you had like a certain amount of Norns. It always kept me busy, but it doesn't take away the whole idea of the original games. In my opinion, Creatures gameboy is one of very few gamboy games thatvis almost as good as the pc game. |

c1anddsaddict
  
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1/12/2014 | 1 |
I would add another dimension to the gameplay. I would make it what spore should have been, combined with the option of playing it as a sandbox like creatures. I apologize in advance for some serious tl;dr.
So, you start off in a fairly temperate biome with a certain number of norns you can customize. Customization will have consequences. Norns that blend in with the environment are less likely to be attacked by predators, grendels, or hostile tribes (more on that later). Norns that are brightly colored attract mates better. Every trait you could give your norns in the beginning would have at least one upside and one downside, as most real world traits do. For example, if you start out with highly intelligent creatures, they will likely be unhappy if you don't get them shelter and tools early on in the game, whereas more animalistic norns would be happy as long as they're fed, and sheltered during storms.
They interact with the local ecosystem. Without them (or any other creatures), the ecosystem could collapse. All creatures, including the norns themselves, would be diurnal, nocturnal or crepuscular. The environment would be a different place, depending on the time of day. Every plant and animal would evolve alongside the creatures. On this planet, there would be other ecosystems to explore. So, how does one preserve the former ecosystem while moving on to a new one?
You can separate your norns into packs, tribes, or nations (depending on intelligence and progress in the game). You choose a few norns you own, enough to support a population, and leave them as a separate group. New packs will not care about the split. However, tribes and nations, if not left with certain provisions, may get angry. Once out of your control, the packs/tribes/nations will continue to grow and evolve. Even if you leave on good terms, that might not last forever. You could even find yourself leaving behind a pack and coming to a powerful empire, bent on claiming your land.
Once a first split has been made, creatures begin to identify with their group. Depending on personality, some will feel more tied to it than others. You could have everything from a die-hard nationalist to a creature who hates the group to which it belongs, and wants to go to another.
At the beginning of the game, norn, ettin and grendel packs would be generated, as well as loners.You could add any of these to your creatures, regardless of species difference. Creatures could mate with outsiders, regardless of whether they're controllable or not. This would be a good way to help creatures adapt to a new environment, by mating with some of the locals. Creatures in tribes or nations might face consequences for doing so, however, depending on the culture. Mating with creatures substantially less intelligent would be a pretty big taboo. Once creatures are added to the group, they too develop identities (if the group yet has an identity). Groups with ettins and grendels will be more likely to independently develop tolerance.
An important aspect of the game would be the planet's resources. These would be used for everything from feeding your creatures to building death rays for them. Resources are necessary to keep the creatures alive. Some would be easily obtained, while others might be harder. Methods of obtaining them could be improved. Every resource could be obtained strictly by the hand (so your creatures who can't even figure out how to use tools could find themselves on a starship.), or by creatures who are intelligent enough and have sufficient technology to obtain them.
There would be a realistic weather system, that would effect the ecosystems.
Disasters, as many others mentioned, would be possible. The player would get a warning, and there would be an option to prevent a disaster. No player wants a disaster to wipe out their creatures who just survived a global pandemic. The disasters would be fairly realistic, only having earthquakes along fault lines, no tsunamis from nowhere, etc.
Creatures could make both technological and social progress, and the hand could greatly influence that (even whether it happens at all). The hand could avoid it altogether by making animalistic norns and not selectively breeding them for intelligence. In that case, the hand could still build things, but the creatures would not. For more intelligent creatures, the hand could order them not to build anything, though this could make them unhappy if the hand doesn't meet their needs. If allowed to, intelligent creatures will create their own technology and societies with the resources they can find. The hand can give orders to shape that, and build its own structures and items. So, the player is in the position to stop progress altogether or propell it forward, or even just sit back and watch.
Each creature, even the animalistic ones, would have a personality. There would be things they're good at, and things they're bad at. They would have different levels and concepts of altruism and empathy. Some would be emotional, while some would have the emotional capacity of a teaspoon. In tribes and onwards, this would lead to creatures developing roles. Their personality, skills and family history (in certain societies) would put them into certain roles, which they'd improve at over time. A creature could have infinite roles. However, the more roles a creature has, the more likely it'll have dangerous levels of stress or be unable to fulfill parts of its roles.
In the same vein, creatures would have agendas, often multiple ones, on a hierarchy scale. For a hungry creature, obtaining food would be high up there. For a miserable creature in a repressive society, freedom might be important, though perhaps not as important as self-preservation or the safety of her family. These agendas could shape society. Creatures with an agenda and a certain personality type may shake society to its core. The hand, of course, may support or end these efforts.
The creatures could get an opinion of the hand. At all levels, a hand who brings food will be more appreciated than a hand who beats up creatures for no particular reason. The hand's actions will be noticed, and creature's reactions would change accordingly. They could do as much as try to attack, act jealously to preferred creatures, or refuse to obey orders. Even so, the hand could take cruel or kind measures to resolve these tensions. Your creatures cannot kill you.
Eventually, the player could build a starship, and send the creatures into space. Space travel would, at first, be slow, taking generation. The hand could leave the ship in orbit, or visit nearby planets. These planets could be colonized, with the right technology. Unlike Spore, advanced aliens would be incredibly rare. Mostly, they would take the form of bacteria in water. The ship itself could be upgraded using materials from other planets, allowing it to move faster, grow larger, better simulate terrariums, etc. Eventually, the player might even run into the shee, or the Lone Shee, or even the elusive Banshee. There would be no endgame. The player could go on ad infinitum, even start all over again with a pack of animalistic norns on another planet, in the same universe, while their old group continues its development.
The technology and society could take many different forms (exponential, as compared to spore). Technologically, biological or mechanical technologies could be developed, or both could be used. Technology could have any or multiple focuses- improving daily life, doing research, exterminating enemies, making money, spying on the populace, or even just fun. Society could be as faceted as real ones are. There would be somewhat fluid ideals that developed as the group does, that the hand could influence. Society develops around these, and the actions of individual norns and groups of them. These would affect everything from mating procedures to leadership. Each society would be different this way, and affected by its history.
You could also choose only to control a smaller group of creatures within a pack/tribe/nation/general group of creatures without making a formal split. The greater group would continue to develop, though you could still keep unwanted changes from happening.
For the creation of a new game, the player could unlock new starting conditions as thee player progresses. Once you've built a spaceship? You could start a game on the spaceship. Added a grendel to your group? You can start with a group of grendels. Visited a desert? You can start on a desert planet or biome. Gotten amphibious or mer-creatures? You can start in a body of water, or on a water planet.
This would be a very versatile game that marries the biology, evolution lore and possibility for wolfling runs of creatures, the societal progress and interaction of spore, the individuality and independant progression of the Sims, and the resource obtaining aspect of games like mine craft. And, it's so complicated, there's almost no way a game like that it coming in my life time.
DS village
My TCR norns
STAY AWAY FROM THE MOLDY, DISEASED CHICKEN NUGGET STASH!!!
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 Wee Scrivener
Trell
    

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1/12/2014 | |
C1anddsaddict; whoa. 
Trell
"Holy crap in a casket!" |

Missmysterics
 
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1/13/2014 | |
Genomes
CFG is the default.
With more numerous but weaker instincts, babies have the ability to navigate,more stimulus genes, this should promote more varied behavior.
Three default genomes for norns.
Two genomes each for ettins and grendels.
Each default genome feels the need to go up when they enter water. Drowning hazards are a bit pointless if you can't teach creatures to escape them.
Environment
Visible day and night cycle.
Norns, grendels and ettins each have an environment with proper food resources and toys.
It always bugged that the previous games left the norn's starting area with most of the food and toys, doesn't exactly encourage norns to go further afield either.
Each environment has a nursery.
A safe space by the egg layer. By default, the nursery has all the food a baby needs, only lets babies and pregnant female in (this is where they want to go when pregnant), and doesn't let babies out until childhood,these settings can be altered by the hand,though only the norn one until powered up. The norn nursery has a movable teaching machine.
Hazards
bacteria should be better spaces out;I found the C3 jungle a bit excessive while the other places very rarely harbored disease.
Flooding, during heavy rainfall, ponds will break their banks and certain areas will pool,that is if it's possible to get creatures to avoid water at all.
No large,lifeless areas
Both the Shee ark and Capillata are supposed to be living spaceships,so why do they have such lifeless grey corridors? Surely the ship itself could produce food for creatures, have parasites, have symbiotic organisms that eat said parasites or flower in the corridors?
features/fixes
Geats are a thing! -and no more glitch.
Not sure how viable this is but the idea was that every time you splice two non-geat genus, the offspring will have a 25% chance of being a geat.
Once you have a geat in your world,a geat egg-layer will be unlocked; the game will take at least one default genome from all three normal genus and hybridise them at an 'artificially' high mutation rate and change the genus to 'geat'. Mutation isn't enough to make stillbirths common, but does mean you have to try your luck.
No creature-confusing agents
All agents have predictable properties to a creature, no toys that don't do anything (dumb rocks) no buttons they can see that they can't push, no critters that can't be eaten.
C1/2 type hatchery
with randomly generated hybrids between the default norn genomes, limited supply, if it's possible these norns will have their colour genes altered to random colours as well. You can still hatch purebreds with an egg-layer, but all gen 1s of the same breed are clones.
Every time the grendel or ettin population falls below 2, the egg layer creates a breeding pair.
This is to make up for extreme age differences that may occur otherwise. Power-ups allow you auto-lay control and breed selection of all egg layers.
Ettins and grendels are selectable from the get-go.
Some may think it takes the challenge out navigating your norns around these wild creatures, but I don't want to faff around with norns just to breed grendels.
Creatures have sleep schedules.
Creatures sleeping according to the in-game clock would be preferred over depending on CA cycles, it allows more variety: if light makes creatures either awake or sleepy there is no crepuscular behavior.
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 Prodigal Sock
Ghosthande
    

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1/17/2014 | |
I'd like to change it so that Norns sense room type through their heads. No more drowning in ankle-deep water.
I would want pregnancy to be more like C1, but with live births. No more egg-laying, and no more hatchery. Let people start with a small population of Norns and import more if they really need to. Maybe scatter "passports" around the world because the player needs one to be able to import a Creature.
Inheritable traits: instead of having specific "breeds" and swapping body parts, let's swap everything. Differently colored body parts... 26 slots means a whole rainbow of colors. Patterns, fur tufts, eye colors, differently shaped ears, different hairstyles, etc. could exist on separate layers. A blue Norn with black stripes and a red Norn with white spots might have a stripy red baby, a blue baby with spots, etc.
Norns actually need food and could starve pretty quickly if they didn't get it. No more overabundant vendors like we had in C3; you get food scattered around like in C1, and one or two vendors in out-of-the-way places. I always carried provisions when my C1 or C2 Norns went exploring so that they would have something to eat. Finding a vendor with goodies every twenty steps makes it seem less like "exploring" and more like a picnic.
And make vendors like the C1 ones. No more dropping food and hoping that a Norn will eat it instead of continuing to push the vendor a million times; just stim them directly and let everyone get on with their lives.
I'd like this silly Norn Home concept to go away, and CAs (for food at least) to be tweaked; it really doesn't make sense for Norns to favor the Meso over everywhere else just because it's smellier there. My Norns in docked worlds would rather die clustered around the DS teleporter than stay in the Norn Meso. That's not right.
Not sure I'd want a visible day/night cycle because the game lags so horribly during the transition, but since the game has one internally it would be nice if it was used more... bats and moths coming out at night, birds and butterflies active during the day, some flowers might open/close only at certain times. I think crepuscular behavior might be possible, just not the way Norns and CAs work now.
Better weather. Much, much better weather. C2 had really great weather... rain, snow, lightning storms, high temperatures and low temperatures. Lots of seasonal variation. Having wind currents is totally possible. Imagine clouds drifting along on the breeze, or falling leaves (and wind-borne seeds!) that are affected by air currents instead of just flying off in some random direction. And also tides; I'd love to have intertidal zones, with tide pools or little plants that wave about in the water or go limp when the tide recedes. Some of the early sketches for the C3 terrariums suggest the Marine Terrarium was going to have tides, but that didn't make it into the game.
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