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 FlareChan  |
Hello! I've started playing C2 for the first time in a long time. I used to play when I was a kid and it first came out, but I really didn't get into it as much as I would have liked. (I dare-say it was a little advanced for me XD) I never heard of wolfling runs until now though, and I was curious about how to run one. How many norns should one start with and do you set up an area for the breeding family to live in or just let them do their thing? Are they even possible in C2? (most of what I've read on them are C3 runs... and if the case is that they're only possible in C3 what would be suggestions as far as downloads to make them more interesting?) Any and all advice would be welcome. I'm really curious about them and would like to have some fun!  |
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 Malkin Manager  |
People definitely did wolfling runs in C2! It might help if you set the time you did it for for only a couple of hours, instead of overnight or while you're at work, just for the first time.  When in doubt, export, save, then try again later.The wolfling run FAQ reckons that a common outcome of wolfling runs in C2 is norns all getting stuck in the incubator level, or drowning in the ocean - so you may wish to move your starter norns to another place in the world. C3 is undoubtedly more popular for WRs, as it was the first game to be created after WRs became popular, and has some features designed with WRs in mind - for example, there is a mode called 'wolf control' which makes the screen refresh less and the game itself run faster. I tend to start my WRs with four norns, two of each sex, so that I'm 'playing it safe' in case of disaster. I've never played C2, so my experience comes from C1 and C3/DS. Hope this helps. My TCR Norns |
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 Steelfoot |
Actually, this is a very good question, and one I would like to know as well because, apparently, I am terrible at it, even though I'm running C3/DS. My previous two attempts were as follows: In the first run, I tried to set the Ark and Capillata up so that, though there were food sources outside of the Norn Meso and Forest Terrarium, there would be distinct advantages to staying put and maybe wandering around a little bit. I then added a few first-generation norns that I had been playing with, split them evenly between the Meso and Forest Terrarium, and left the game on overnight with fast ticks on and the Wolfmate agent installed. The result was decidedly disappointing: the game was paused by the Wolfmate with two adult female norns and an "ancient" couple, all sixteenth generation, huddled in the bottom floor of the Meso. Upon examining their genetics, I discovered that they were actually less effective at processing food than their first-generation ancestors, and were generally less desirable than what I had hatched at the beginning! My theory was that, since they had no reason to leave the Norn Meso, the population simply had no need to improve genetically, as there was a constant (and very large) supply of food and toys that they could simply ask for and receive without any trouble. The second run was another flop, but for different reasons. This time, I locked the Norn Meso to prevent a similar incident, but distributed food vendors a bit more evenly to entice norns to spread out a bit more, but also made it so that the food sources were primarily dispensers that required input from norns to activate. I also started from freshly hatched eggs. As before, I left it on with fast ticks and the Wolfmate overnight. The result was perhaps less desirable, as not only had the game been stopped by the Wolfmate within an hour of me going to sleep, but the first generation had not even been breached! They (or what was left of them anyhow) were massed around the Umbilicus teleporter for some reason. My theory for this one is that either nobody ever figured out how to work a vending machine or they all got distracted by the teleporter, so they all starved to death. Seriously, how do these things even work? The wiki just isn't that descriptive in how to set them up, and at a glance, it seems only the second one I performed was even technically a wolfling run, the first being a feral run instead! |
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Malkin Manager |
Upon examining their genetics, I discovered that they were actually less effective at processing food than their first-generation ancestors, and were generally less desirable than what I had hatched at the beginning! Congratulations - your creatures evolved!  The umbilical teleporter, as an 'elevator', doesn't play nice with the creatures' instincts - Vampess made a fix for it which turns it into a much-more-sensible 'door'. Everyone has their own favourite setups for worlds, but Vamp's fixes are really helpful. My TCR Norns |
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 Caves Dweller Rascii Administrator |
Malkin wrote:  Malkin wrote: - Rascii |
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Steelfoot |
I have also never owned C2.  Moving on, how exactly does one set up a Wolfling/Feral run such that I can go to bed and have it still operating the next morning, and also actually have some sort of capacity for evolution and adaptation? It seems detrimental to just lock them in a single safe metaroom. |
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Malkin Manager |
Well, firstly, how do you currently set up your wolfling/feral runs, and what do you consider to be 'the capacity for evolution and adaptation'? I know Grendel Man likes to remove bacteria from his runs due to the insta-death that ATP Decoupler provides... At a minimum, I'd suggest investigating Vamp's fixes and the Garden Box, having a fiddle with those. The rest of Amaikokonut's creations are worth getting as well. (The non-gender bias one can be key in that it stops there from being a sudden one-gendered-world.) My TCR Norns |
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 Bearthing |
Sorry for jacking the thread, but re: DS -- I'd personally like to know how to get fast ticks to act like fast ticks. They actually run the game slower for me, so I just let time flow normally. Is it a computer thing, or is there a way to fix it (fewer agents etc)? Don't care; I'm a bear. |
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FlareChan |
Omg thanks for all the feedback~! It's so wonderful that this community is so active. So I guess C2 runs are possible, but more frustrating in general... I've found that the norns I've tried to raise and allow to go feral seem to keep forgetting how to survive after I turn them loose and simply starve to death. Maybe the C3 norns are smarter? I tried a little bit of that one earlier to get my feet wet with it again, and I was quickly overwhelmed! Without anything downloaded for it besides what came with Exodus, I started out with 6 and in about 45 minutes I had 2 males left... Grendels kept showing up and decimating them! I had read about creating anti-grendel machines and went to make a couple of those.... only to find out I have no idea what machine is what.... I think I've identified the scent emitter, and the sludge gun is obvious, but what does the creature detector look like? XD; I didn't learn much at all about these games my first time around. My next inquiry was gonna be whether anyone has ever put together a picture guide to the C3 machinery? Also... genetics. This is what initially interested me about the game and what I've explored the least. How do you look at genetics, compare them, and determine if any mutations occurred and what their effects were? |
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Bearthing |
You can find Genecompare for C3 or CA here. It's very easy to use, even for people like me who don't get nornie genetics whatsoever. As for the other games, I'm not sure. Don't care; I'm a bear. |
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 Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
Apologies if this has already been posted, as I didn't have time to read through it all, but your C2 runs will go a LOT better if you have large bodies of water covered up. There are some bridges in the COB section here I think. |
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Malkin Manager |
You might like to get the C3 Grettin Switch - it lets you control the Grendel and Ettin Mothers. The creature detector kind of looks like an old-fashioned computer - it's beige and with a blue screen, with a red and green button on the bottom and a whirlygig on top. My TCR Norns |
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FlareChan |
Okay... well, then the creature detector is apparently what I thought the scent emitter was... what's the scent emitter look like? XD Btw, thank you everyone for all your advice and inputs! I've downloaded a lot of stuff to try and set my game up better... I will admit that while I downloaded the genecompare I'm still not confident that I'll be able to use it. I checked out one of the sample genetics files made available... and I didn't understand any of it. XD; |
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Malkin Manager |
The scent emitter looks like this. My TCR Norns |
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FlareChan |
Ahhh! Thank you!! Now to create an antigrendel machine! XD Yey! |
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Steelfoot |
Malkin wrote: I have every single fix from Vampess and just about everything from Amaikokonut (which, by the way, two agent APIs/cores in the span of a year is very impressive), including the gender bias removal. Naturally I found Vampess' fixes and the gender bias fix immediately after the two runs I mentioned. What I mean by "evolution and adaptation" there is that I feel like there's a balance that I haven't yet struck. In my first run I simply made it too easy to survive, ensuring that positive mutations would not be favored more or less than negative mutations; there was enough food, toys, and company for everyone, so bad mutations stuck around just as well as the good ones did. In the second run, due to my efforts to avoid a repeat incident, they just all died instead. The idea is to encourage learning and natural ability, rather than luck, as a means of survival, so that positive traits are passed on to future generations. For example, instead of using Wolfling Vendors which I see as not really teaching a norn anything other than "stay here, food magically appears!" I want to encourage them to think something like "I'm hungry, so I ought to head back to the Norn Terrarium or Meso, or the Jungle if I'm feeling brave." I'm still aware that food's kind of mandatory inside the inner workings of the ship, so there are vending machines scattered about, but again, I don't want to make it "too easy" on them; they have to learn to make something happen rather than sitting and waiting for it to happen. Maybe I'm just asking too much. Anyways, my setup goes as follows: -Turn off Grendels and Ettins with the Grettin Switch. Honestly I've never raised either, so maybe that's a project for a later date. -Ensure there's plenty of food and supplies for everyone, but also that it's not "just there" or require no effort on the norn's part to retrieve. This includes, but isn't limited to, using the Garden Box to scatter food patches around in the Terrariums that don't ordinarily contain much food, particularly the Desert and Aquatic Terrariums; placing vending machines around the Bridge and Engineering pathways, making retrieval of food something of a learning experience; and locking off the Norn Meso because, basically, there's infinite food in there. -Set population limit to 16. (Maybe I should boost this up?) -Use Muco to lay a whole bunch of norn eggs of various breeds, but "touch" them so that they don't hatch immediately. -Move eggs to the Norn Terrarium on the Ark, and let them hatch there. -Turn on fast ticks, go to bed, wake up the next morning and dissect the results. Oh, side note, I learned yesterday that simply renaming the agents, genetics, and world data folders doesn't do me much good to prevent them being deleted when I reinstall Creatures Exodus, because the uninstaller provided by GOG, at least, deletes the whole folder instead. Is there any agents I should pick up to help me with wolfling runs while I'm "shopping?" :3 |
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 Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
I don't do literal wolfing runs very often, so I don't have many agent suggestions aside from the Garden Box, which you already know. It really is great for wolfing runs, since it lets you set up distinct patches of food that only appear at certain times. And of course the CFE breeds aren't to be missed if you're doing anything that involves Norn intelligence. ![[ntongue]](/images/smilies/emot_tongue.gif "[ntongue]") I get the same problem you describe with the wolfing vendors if I leave a bunch of Norns in the Meso for very long; eventually a big pile of Norns will accumulate next to the empathic vendor, doing absolutely nothing but lie there, occasionally complain of hunger, and then eat when food appeared. ![:\](/images/smilies/confused.gif ":\") The first few times I saw it I thought they must be too weak from hunger to move... but no... they were just being lazy butts!One thing I would like to see--but I'm not sure if it's out there yet--would be a Grendel breed that feels impelled to hang about Grendel Home. All my feral runs that have wild Grendels fail very quickly, because they make a beeline for Norn Home, then loiter there forever. Having a breed that lurks in its own metaroom, running brief "raiding sprees" on the Norn Terrarium before retreating into the jungle again, seems like it would be really useful.  |
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Steelfoot |
I didn't know that the CFE genomes existed until very recently. Why yes, I do live under a large rock, why do you ask? I love the Garden Box, but it kinda bothers me to just make apples grow out of a blank wall or mushrooms grow in the desert. Not sure why, it just looks funny. I can't find any tree or fountain or "natural" decorations to add, though, that would make it look less funny. Maybe that should be my next project? Actually I don't think I've ever once seen a norn wander back into the Norn Terrarium after leaving; it seems they prefer the ship's corridors for some apparently arbitrary reason. I have to pick them up and put them back into the Norn Terrarium after they toddle out. Is there any reason why they don't come back when they're hungry, lonely, homesick, or whatever? It seems to me like that should be the first place they go back to when they're needy, as opposed to starving while mashing buttons in an elevator just outside the door to the Norn Terrarium. Oh, did I mention I use no metarooms? |
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Malkin Manager |
One thing that I've noticed is that having a very large population removes some of the challenge involved in mating - in finding a mate, courting them successfully, and having offspring. Including agents which can be interacted with in a variety of ways can help to foster norns who learn to interact with their surroundings - like the edible, squishable balloon bugs. They're good because norns don't have strong instincts to interact with them, but they can learn to eat them and to touch them to help with hunger and boredom. There is a teleporter 'gadget' up the top of the norn meso which transports norns to the medibay, which is why they always end up there. If they're unaccustomed to having to travel to get things, they may remain there. My TCR Norns |
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Steelfoot |
Good point with the population cap thing. Maybe sheer volume will decrease the chance of failure somewhat. Can't find a medical teleporter in the Meso, though I did find one in the Norn Terrarium. Is that what you meant? Hopefully removing it will reduce some of the "surprise" visits to the Bridge and make it so that a norn can't end up there entirely on accident. Side note, I checked with a smell detector and discovered that the Norn Terrarium simply doesn't have a "norn homes" smell. Is this something that's generated over time, or do I have to set up an emitter to get it there? I have for now, but it was a little confusing to see an an area designed to be a norn home not smell like a norn home. |
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Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
Really? The creature home smells are meant to help guide a Creature to the incubator area--it's an aid for when they are pregnant and feel homesick--so it makes sense for it to not be present in large amounts throughout the metaroom... but not for it to be completely absent. |
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FlareChan |
What are you using to check the scents of the terrarium? I haven't seen an agent like that! Also, how do you access the wolf control thingies? |
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Marvolo323 |
I think it's Shift-Ctrl-W for accessing Wolf Control... |
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Steelfoot |
Just checked right in front of the incubator with a script and the norn home smell level is a little over 0.1. Oddly, I discovered that the farther away from the Norn Terrarium incubator I was while using the script, the higher the number was until I got to the door in the passage at the bottom; on the other side of the door, there was a path that kept getting stronger. At the end of the ensuing game of Find the Emitter, I ended at the Norn Meso on the heating pad with a level of about 0.9. Did it really travel that far, or is it a series of weaker emitters? Also I just discovered that the airlocks in the corridors throw an error just after the "opening" sound.
Running GOG version of Creatures Exodus. Ah well, guess the whole thing is kinda messed up! My norns have been staring at each other for about the past ten minutes in the exact same pose now, too. I'll try making a new world, reinstalling, and so on. I hope it doesn't come to the reinstalling thing, that's getting kinda frustrating. Also, FlareChan, you can check smells one of two ways: there's a big orange thing with fans on each side that looks a lot like the Smell Emitter called the Smell Detector that operates the same way, but picks up smells instead of producing them. The other method (and some more info on smells or, more accurately, cellular automata) is described here at Amaikokonut's Naturing :: Nurturing blog. Oh, and the "Wolf Control" is CTRL+SHIFT+W in-game (make sure the game's not paused or it won't work! This gets kinda frustrating to me ) and the commands will be described in that interface. If you mean the Wolfmate agent I use, you can get it from (what's left of) Markham's Norn Land. |
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 silvak |
I used the Smell Detector from C3 and found that there is TONS of in the Meso and that there is a slight elevation of Norn home smell in the Norn Terrarium right in front of the learning room door. Lost Content, help find it a home! |
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Steelfoot |
That's pretty consistent with what I found! curiously that spot in front of the door seems to be around 0.2-ish, whereas the Meso has easily four times that. Patching the Norn Terrarium to have a decent emitter over the incubator would be nice! Also making a new world fixed the weird air lock bug. Wonder why it was having trouble in the first place... |
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Malkin Manager |
You can always try the Home Smell Parfume in the Norn Terrarium, over the incubator, to boost the smell. My TCR Norns |
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