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 Feddlefew   |
What do you guys think the genetics will look like? The genetics that control fur and body proportions alone are going to provide us with endless hours of tweaking, but what about their biochemistry and pose-type genes? Or what are the chances that they might have made norns diploid for the first time? I would understand if they had to eliminate the gate genes, because getting a 3d model to move in a way that doesn't go plunging into the abyss of uncanny valley is really, really hard. I think from the previews I've seen they've done an excellent job, BTW. |
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 Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
It would be a bit silly to make them diploid, since they are still presumably going to have small populations necessitating inbreeding. |
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Feddlefew |
Mmm, good point. 8^/ I wonder how they're going to handle the body proportions? |
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 Bifrost |
Hopefully, the genetics will look as similar to the older versions as threedimentially possible, makin it possible for the advanced geneticist (is that a word, and if so, was the spelling correct?) to convert previous genetic concepts into C4. Having said that, I'd think it'd be unecessary to mention that I seriously hope for a genus type, so that grendels and ettins, when they come, will be different creature types, as they are now. And the more the genetics open up for player tweaking, the better; when they don't yet have a functional support for third party development, at least we should be able to make third party-ish breeds - at least genetic breeds... |
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Feddlefew |
I think that the game has great potential for genetic breeds. Just looking at the screen shots we have so far the amount of variation in ear shape and size alone is impressive. The only thing that worries me is that I haven't been able to tell the difference between male and female norns so far. Edit: From the Big Ben C4 page: "Living in colonies of ten to twenty individuals, the Norns are charming little omnivorous and oviparous mammals. They are inquisitive, eager to learn and understand, and are technology enthusiasts. Each one of them has individual genes defining its physical, psychological and intellectual traits." So it looks like the shapes we saw on the norn statistic screen were indeed a measurement of the norns' attributes instead of skills. |
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 Malkin Manager  |
Again, from the blog: "Control over genetics will be there, mostly limited to visual properties of the norn initially (race, patterns, colors etc.) and will likely evolve to match the community requests. Of course, everything in the Norns will be passed on in the genetic code to successive generations." and from the recent announcement: "Breeding and Genome The passing of Norn data through the genome is maintained. Two Norns that breed in the wild will produce a kid that gets its genes from the parents, like before. In terms of control over the breeding process, you will have access to a breeding machine which will focus on the cosmetic properties of your Norns, which will drive a lot of breeding gameplay. We have other plans on what would make for a compelling breeding experience outside of the cosmetic space but we’re focusing on finishing what we have here first." So it looks like there won't be a genetics kit on launch, but a 'breeding machine' which we can use to customise the appearance. Perhaps later on FC will release more advanced functions to us. My TCR Norns |
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 Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
I wonder how they'll handle natural inherited traits versus user-gengineered ones? Currently this is one of the things I'm most curious about. Maybe for second-generation Norns you can only choose from the gradient between the parents' traits?  |
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Feddlefew |
I'm not certain how the gradient would work. Would it change the way crossing over works in the norns' genome to increase the number of genes inherited from one parent? |
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Prodigal Sock Ghosthande |
Well, like, you could have a Norn with a strength level of 50%, and one with a strength rating of 50% or 70% and the baby could inherit a skill level anywhere between those values, but you could choose the ratio instead of it being completely random. Same for the visibility/hue of fur patterns. But with the "stats" system apparently being deprecated, the gradient idea might not even be applicable at all. |
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Malkin Manager |
While there are no specific plans at the moment [for a Genetics Kit], it’s somewhat possible depending on where the players will want the game to go after release. We would probably need to find a way to do that in game (not an external tool) or limit the functionality to some versions of the game (ie. PC/Mac). The main reason for this is that since the game is free to play, it’s potentially risky for us to allow users to freely modify the genome and distribute Norns to their friends that invalidate the game progression. It’s not necessarily incompatible, but not high on our priority list at the moment. Still, the splicing machine will allow you to change some properties that are a reflection of the genome itself. So, while it looks like we will be able to change some things cosmetically with the breeding machine, due to the game apparently having goals like 'breed a blue norn', and 'Norn Collections', we won't be able to have a proper genetics kit.  My TCR Norns |
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 mip |
To be honest, I'm not surprised. Since it is an online game, they want people to play for a long time and interact with each other. The genetics kit would put a damper on both these things since everyone would be self-sufficient. Why find someone in the community with a blue norn to breed with when you can genetically engineer your own? This isn't necessarily a bad thing - it is fun to try and aim for goals through selective breeding, especially if you are working together with friends on it. It really depends on how robust the starting genetics are. If a problem like OHSS is present, it could get very frustrating very quickly.  Exploring the Ark A journal for C3/DS - updated last: 5 May 2013 |
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Feddlefew |
I would pay < $10 for a full genetics editor, or about the cost of the average game on steam. |
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 Ettina |
"Well, like, you could have a Norn with a strength level of 50%, and one with a strength rating of 50% or 70% and the baby could inherit a skill level anywhere between those values, but you could choose the ratio instead of it being completely random. Same for the visibility/hue of fur patterns." Nature versus nurture? I've heard human height works this way - you are genetically programmed to be within a certain height range, but where in that range you end up is determined by your diet and other factors. By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do. |
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Ettina |
"geneticist (is that a word, and if so, was the spelling correct?)" It is a word, and you spelt it correctly. By the way, I don't care if anyone steals my ideas for their own work, as long as you don't try to stop me from making my own stuff. Many ideas I mention are things I don't have the time or skill to actually do. |
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 AquaShee |
Judging by the latest blog post, Norns will be able to be bred for certain fur patterns, which will be catalogued. Much like in the game 'Pocket Frogs' for the iPhone. This is quite interesting, since it adds a form of active breeding to the game that the other games didn't really have, or at least not as big. The old genes will still be there as well, which means that if you breed 'too' actively, you might end up with pretty but genetically inferior Norns. Just like what happens with various cat and dog breeds in real life! The blog also mentions the 'buying' of genes, which most likely means cosmetic genes such as special fur patterns. I like the idea of this, since this is basically exactly how some of the old mall breeds worked for the art-only norns. (Siamese, Harlequin,...) The Community Scribble: make (y)our own metaroom! |
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Malkin Manager |
On the official site: What is a norn? "Norns... have an ultra-realistic genetic code that is close to that of Humans." ![[noddeye]](/images/smilies/emot_oddeye.gif "[noddeye]") Oh deary me... My TCR Norns |
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Patient Pirate ylukyun Manager |
What is this I don't even. |
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Malkin Manager |
It sounds like the C4 norns will at least have a working Friend or Foe lobe, and new stimuli and neuro-emitters will be seen. ![[ngrin]](/images/smilies/emot_grin.gif "[ngrin]") My TCR Norns |
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 Caroline |
Interesting. It seems the genetics won't be changed too much. I'd rather breed for specific behaviors than for fur patterns, though. I just hope you'll be able to create norns that are immortal, strong, smart, etc. I wouldn't see why that wouldn't be included though so meh. |
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Feddlefew |
FC seems to have found away to make norns more aware of their environment, which is part of the altruism and forging behaviors they've mentioned, but the way its described implies its hard-coded into the game. Considering that norns are currently incapable of using vendors and elevator buttons without hardwired instinct trickery, this might an improvement. |
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 Andrettin |
ylukyun wrote: True, but if they keep variations as we have in C3/DS and CV, then in effect we can represent the kind of thing that happens when an individual has two recessive versions of a gene. |
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Feddlefew |
Looking at the splicing machine, it looks like norns might have chromosomes. Plural. |
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