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TWB/TCB, CFF, CFG etc    
Gulliver

Gulliver



  6/4/2021  1

Does anyone have a recommendation for which to use as a returning player?

Back when I was playing C3/DS regularly, Gizmo norns were the hot new thing, but I understand they're now more of historic note than anything else.

So... what would you recommend I (re)start with?

I want to say CFG because, well, gizmo norns... but the CFF 2017 breeds seem to be the new standard and likely for good reason.

To what degree are they cross-breedable?

TWB/TCB's sound interesting... how much do they differ in practice?

The other question is, of the replacement genomes, are the Mall Pack breeds' differences generally kept, like do CFF Toxic norns still need to eat things that would kill other norns and are Hardmans still little thugs?

Thanks!

 
cyborg

cyborg



  6/4/2021

I'm pretty sure the breed differences remain with all alternative genomes. All I know is that TWB/TCB don't crossbreed well with other genomes because Dragoler, the creator, said so.
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  6/4/2021  2

I can confirm that TWB/TCB genomes do not crossbreed well as their changes are extensive. In practice, if you are using the most up to date released version the differences you should notice over other genomes are as follows:
- Become hungrier less frequently than most genomes with the exception of 2017s who also contain full hunger fixes (hunger drive emissions tied directly to storage chemicals + a lobe to prevent overeating from CFF), creatures also become hungrier when they are more physically active.
- Temperature sensitivity, creatures in cold environments feel cold and in hot environments feel hot. Resistance to the cold depends on how much insulating fat a creature has on its body, and heat resistance depends on hydration level (if they are too dehydrated they will eat to gain water).
- No random shivering, most creatures shiver when they urinate, when TWB/TCBs shiver it is because their body temperatures or external environments are too low.
- Breeds easier than CFF but less often than most other genomes, females dance when aroused not just fertile, pregnancy costs resources so starving females cannot become pregnant.
- More expressive, looks sad when really hungry.
- Most norn breeds have an innate fear of grendels and will attempt to flee by escaping through doors. They are also more likely to fight back.
- TWBs have a slightly easier time falling asleep when they lay down.
- Non-aggressive breeds are more polite, will hit each other less frequently and won't steal apples out of each others hands.
- Can survive underwater for longer (assuming the water is heated, as hypothermia can set in quickly with frigid water) and will be forced out when they start to drown (assuming they have a navigable path back to their "home" ).
- Stronger immune system completely dependent on vitamin C in the diet, which is gained from eating all fruits. Can be injected with small amounts of antigens which will not harm the creature but will make it start producing cells that pump out antibodies.
- Generally better navigation than most earlier genomes, may have a small amount of EE resistance.
- The spirit of all official breeds remain the same but now Toxic Norns and Magma Norns function differently.
* Toxic Norns need to cultivate a microbiome of gut flora from eating trash which allows them to digest other foods. They are still harmed by medicines and antibodies.
* Magma Norns now dislike cold environments and enjoy hot environments, able to withstand and benefiting from internal and external temperatures that would harm other creatures (in other genomes they simply feel cold over time then go to the Ettin Home to stop feeling cold).
- Rare variants.

And probably more smaller things, not going into the inner workings. To function well the genomes require heat patches for the C3 Ark and there are a few community made rooms that are simply too cold, which along with the lack of crossbreeding compatibility are the only real drawbacks. But then I made the genomes so i'm going to be a bit bias.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  6/4/2021  2

There's a guide for how to set your world up for TWB/TCB creatures at the creatures wiki, if you'd like to give them a go. I believe they also have several of the gizmo features, just implemented differently.

My TCR Norns
 
Gulliver

Gulliver



  6/5/2021

Thank you Dragonler for your work on them. They definitely have a feel of earlier games' creatures. The stock C3/DS ones were much too locked on autopilot.

Malkin - I've had CAOS crashes all over the place using fixes from that guide in the past. At the moment, it's clouds crashing and autokill is dealing with them and a couple of years ago I couldn't run a world for more than 40 minutes before something on a timer somewhere made it unplayable that I narrowed down to one of the Norn Terranium "fixes". I don't know if one fix overwrote another or something.

 
Malkin

Malkin

Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  6/5/2021  1

That's a pity - have you tried making a DS-only world for your TWB/TCBs with just the Capillata fix, Norngarden 1 and the Mushroom Forest? That should give your creatures enough heated space to roam and give you a try of the TWB/TCB goodness without a billion errors crashing your game.

My TCR Norns
 
Kirel

Kirel



  6/10/2021

Hi Dragoler, are the v2.5 TWB/TCBs still the latest version (https://www.creaturescaves.com/downloads.php?section=Breeds&view=547)? I thought I remember you saying you were working on v3.0 a while back, and I want to make sure I didn't miss you releasing them. Thanks!
 
DaedalusR

DaedalusR



  6/10/2021

The V3.0 TWB/TCBs were released in CCSF2019, here's the link.

https://ccsf2019.home.blog/2019/11/07/ccsf-day-y-twb-and-tcb-update/

 
Kirel

Kirel



  6/10/2021

Ah ok, yes, I do have the v3.0s, I just checked my downloads. So v3.0 is still the latest then?
 
Gulliver

Gulliver



  6/14/2021

Well, I've got things working. No idea how.

I've got a little run going of TWB and TCBs in C12DS. Having a bit of a problem with the multi-generational orgy that's been happening by the sunflowers, but some have made it further afield. A few even went down the lifts to the underground area.

I remember in C1, they literally had a wandering gene that told them to head east at a certain age because it's a flat plane from the hatchery to the grendel tree.

Having some issues with Draconians norns - one died of wounds (not sure what happened) and the attempts and cross-breeds haven't fared well. One had ATP issues, I think.

Might I suggest, if an update to be made, that you look at the relationship between crowdedness and moving away from each other. They seem to be quite focussed on recommending to push portals rather than actually just moving away from each other. They started exploring a bit once I'd broken the huddle a bit. Telling them to retreat from each other, go east, go west etc eventually started them off and now they suggest it to each other. Neat!

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  6/14/2021

Gulliver wrote:
Might I suggest, if an update to be made, that you look at the relationship between crowdedness and moving away from each other. They seem to be quite focussed on recommending to push portals rather than actually just moving away from each other. They started exploring a bit once I'd broken the huddle a bit. Telling them to retreat from each other, go east, go west etc eventually started them off and now they suggest it to each other. Neat!



Adjusting spreading behavior has been an ongoing process in development, but it's tricky to get right. The biggest difficulty is that it's easy to tell a creature to move towards something, but harder to get them to move away. Leaving in the instincts to retreat causes creatures to simply dance around each other, retreating a certain distance away then moving back; this is why they are encouraged to go through doors and portals to get away - if they cannot see the other creatures they will not move back to them.

Furthermore, creatures are naturally going to gather around food sources no matter how crowded that makes them. I have a few tweaks in the works including a brain tract that should improve the behavior, but so long as the food is all in the same place their instincts will drive them back there.

TCB Draconians would be considered a more challenging breed to keep, the young are extremely fragile and can die from very little damage inflicted on them (while adults are considerably tougher than most breeds). They also require higher and more stable temperatures than standard norns. Basically, think about them as though you were keeping reptiles.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Gulliver

Gulliver



  6/15/2021

Yeah. I remember when the Draconians came out, actually. They were either basically invincible or I'd just find them dead somewhere. I'd really like a Dream Norn conversion, but I could probably do that myself on a cosmetic level and try to replicate some other changes. Do TWBs respond to Tryptamine hallucinations? Maybe I could play with that as a "dream" state... maybe produce a small amount while sleeping so when they wake up they don't fully wake up? Hmm.

I like that you've kept up the feels of the different breeds and TWBs really remind me of C2's slightly more chaotic norns. C3/DS stock norns were too... autopilot-driven? Anyway, "go east" and "go west" is quite useful.

A few made it as far as the island through the jungle, although they just rode the submarine backwards and forwards for a long time until I told them "go to home", when they made it about to the garden herb arches bit and hung around there. The end of the jungle seems to be another hangout point - there is apparently a supply of seeds there, which kept them going for a while.

I used the Archways cob to connect the Meso (because it's a lockable environment) to C12DS's Albia because it's a portal, which satisfy's the Chi Chi Norn Curse of portal obsession.

Anyway, excellent work Dragoler - I'm really enjoying this run and it's my first TWB run. The norns feel more like the norns of my youth!

I downloaded the autopsy agent which provides some insight into deaths when they do occur.

I've had a few deaths related to cold temperature in C12DS (in winter) and some issues with low ATP. I'm guessing that's basically a sign of starvation as it's often norns who've strayed far.

One was at a very young age, which suggested that an initial concentration gene mutated or something so it hatched without enough fuel to make it to the fridge... until I read your 2015 patch notes and saw that that was not set to mutate. Bad luck, I guess.

I've had one that showed ATP decoupler present, which may have been from eating a badplant or from bacteria? Not sure. I also had one heart attack.

I've had a couple of deaths by apparently teleporting grendels (seriously, I have no idea what's going on there as they shouldn't have been able to get to where they were). One got into Albia, which was completely separate from the rest of the world at that point. I don't have the random teleporter in the world, so I don't know what's going on.

Anyhoo. I'm on gen 7 now from an original stock of, I think, eight norns - four TWB CLabs stock, four TWB CC stock for some variety. They're all in Albia. I've left the rest of the ship to the Ettins (very hard to keep alive - I've just had to dump 6 more eggs in the meso in a last-ditch attempt to get a population going) and Grendels (somewhat better, but I've also just had to get a load more eggs in). I think this is partly a testament to how easygoing C12DS is for norns as it just piles food on top of you.

Stock grendels really want to get onto the Capillata, which is pretty neat from a behaviour perspective but quite annoying from a keeping-norns-alive perspective.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  6/15/2021  1

I did make a TWB Dream Norn conversion, though they haven't been released officially. They are designed to survive in colder climates and include Amanora's extended pigment genes (added in a way that should hopefully not cause sliders) as well as a number of general edits that are in testing.
TWB Dream Norns

It's not a good idea to give TWB norns tryptamine, they tend to hallucinate grendels which causes them distress.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Gulliver

Gulliver



  6/18/2021

Thanks for that - I'll add it in my next batch.

I'm on generation 13 of a "closed" genepool, with an average of 20-30 norns on the go from 8 TWB starters (from memory, one each of hardman, magma, treehugger, fallow, draconian, carna, honeybadger and bondi).

I've had deaths from overheating, being too cold, heart failure and, most of all, low ATP. Edit: just had one die from stomach failure.

I've had an organ duplication fairly early on and it's present in quite a lot of the more recent genomes I've looked at. It doesn't do anything, but it's there. None of the other mutations have been particularly spicy.

Trips to the island are much more regular now - there's a small collection of seeds that spawn in the jungle, which pulls norns over, then they start playing with the movers. I don't think I've had one circumnavigate Albia yet (which was always something I enjoyed in C1).

 
HigherSynth

HigherSynth


 visit HigherSynth's website: My Steam Profile
  2/8/2023

Dragoler wrote:
I did make a TWB Dream Norn conversion, though they haven't been released officially. They are designed to survive in colder climates and include Amanora's extended pigment genes (added in a way that should hopefully not cause sliders) as well as a number of general edits that are in testing.



Thanks for sharing these. I love TWBs and Dream Norns so I'm excited to try them out. I need a little help with this file though. How do I make eggs from genome files without an egg agent? Sorry for the silly question but I just returned to the game after not playing for years. Also, thank you for making the TWBs! They really breathe new life into the game.

Edit: I have one more question. If I want this TWB version to be the default for the Dream Norns, can I simply rename the file?

 


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