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New Caves feature: Wayback catalog   
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  4/28/2020  6

For better or for worse, the Wayback Machine is a huge part of the Creatures community: although a lot of content has been lost over the years, a lot has been indefinitely preserved there. It seems like Creatures Caves policy is not to reupload things that still have live downloads, but the problem that leaves us with is that the stuff on Wayback can be very hard to find, especially for casual or new fans who aren't used to the kind of digging around it takes to find stuff in the remnants of the Web 1.0 community that was spread across so many different websites. Furthermore, expecting every person who wants to download these things to go hunt it down themselves, or ask someone who already knows, is unreasonable.

We need to have a centralized place to catalog what's available through Wayback Machine and where.

It'd be a good idea to update wiki pages for websites (which frequently already have a Wayback Machine link) with what downloads were and were not saved, and if any of the lost downloads are available elsewhere; the benefits of doing it this way are that anyone could contribute to the project at any time, and notes would simultaneously be made of what is NOT available, which is also valuable.

But I think a better option would be to put these links directly on Creatures Caves. They could be interspersed with content that is actually hosted on CC in the pre-existing sections (COBs, Breeds, Metarooms), and there's already precedent for this, given that quite a few downloads link to another site instead of a direct download. However, there's no obvious way to make known what ISN'T available in this idea.

My second idea for collecting these on CC is to make a new section of the site called Archives, next to Downloads on the bar, where instead of having sub-sections for different types of content, they are for different offline websites. Each website's sub-section would contain all of the downloads it hosted, with Wayback Machine links if the files were archived, CC links if they are now hosted on CC, or a note that they are currently considered unavailable if they are nowhere to be found. Some problems with this are difficulty attributing downloads to a single site when many things were hosted on more than one site, ALL of which are now defunct, and the redundancy of effort in creating the content boxes for things that are already hosted on CC.

A way to combine those two ideas would be to place Wayback Machine-hosted content among the CC-hosted content, and then have a new site section listing things that no-one has been able to find, as well as things that have been taken offline for a reason (ex. some of Norngirl's breeds) and so that will probably never be hosted anywhere again. This would provide a centralized, easy-to-use place for people to find these obscure downloads, a reference for what is currently considered unavailable, and (using the existing upload system) a way for anyone with an account to bring content they may rediscover into the public eye by making a new post using the working Wayback Machine link.

I neither run Creatures Caves nor am capable of coming to a consensus as a single person, so there is the problem, and there are my ideas for what to do about it. What do you think? What do we think?

(The wiki definitely needs attention no matter what we do, but that's a different problem.)

 
C-Rex
Lollipop Lord

C-Rex
United Kingdom  

 visit C-Rex's website: The Norn Nebula
  4/28/2020  4

With websites going down left, right, and centre, I can't see any reason why we shouldn't be archiving old downloads.
 
samsa

samsa



  4/28/2020  4

Honestly, I think the policy to not archive things that have living hosts is unwise. Mirroring, with credit, is a public service that helps us preserve people's hard work for the future.

darken your room, shut the door, empty your mind. you are still in great company.
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  4/28/2020  2

Oh 100%. I have much stronger opinions about this than I verbalized in the OP, but I've also been in the community long enough to know that a significant portion of it not only doesn't share my feelings, they're outright hostile to them. We wouldn't be in this situation if the majority of the CC felt the way I do. But, I'm hoping the recent loss of Treesprite's Creatures Grove will make more people realize how dire our situation is (and has been for a very long time), and that I can start organizing a coordinated effort to keep it from getting worse that meets people who are still against mirroring/reuploading with credit, but not express permission, halfway. I will not compromise my beliefs, but I have no interest in fracturing the tiny remaining community for an old, obscure series in a niche-appeal genre that has little modern interest.
 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  4/28/2020  2

I know that in the Stardew Valley community, unless something is explicitly closed-source no-redistribution (and sometimes even then), if it breaks it's considered OK to fix it and upload, with credit and a version number including -unofficial, to some specific forum threads explicitly for unofficial updates and rehosting. The only time something is considered not fair game for rehosting on the unofficial rehost forum is if the author actively took it down.

In all other cases it is assumed the author wants it up.

Maybe we could have something a little like that? Even if we assume all things uploaded by the sysadmin were deliberately, actively and voluntarily taken down when the site goes down (and imo we shouldn't), everything not uploaded by the sysadmin was deleted without the author's knowledge or consent and they can be assumed to want it accessible somewhere.


 
Zurinsel13

Zurinsel13
Austria  

 visit Zurinsel13's website: Random maybe
  4/29/2020

I already found the loss of GermanCreatures / Creatures unlimited a tragedy.... and years later pages like Seeyou7 followed and where gone from one day to the other- So it was only natural that one day or the other big pages like Treesprite's Creature would vanish and sadly became a reality.
I agree 100% that we need a working archive, it is just so frustrating when you want to find a certain breed and all you encounter a dead links leading to 404.


"Vision is the art of seeing what is invisible to others"
-Jonathan Swift

 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  4/29/2020  2

It looks like this same discussion came up at this time last year, but nothing came of it: https://creaturescaves.com/forum.php?view=12&thread=7208&page=1

I'm glad to see there is still support for the idea of a community archival effort, but what I want to do with this thread is make something concrete and actionable we can do along those lines. What do you guys think about what I've proposed? Should we record working Wayback Machine links on Creatures Caves, on the wiki, and/or some other place? Should we not bother recording links and reupload everything instead? Should we do both?

 
Wingheart

Wingheart
New Zealand  


  4/29/2020  1

I think we should have the Wayback Machine links on the wiki, see if we can request a WaybackMachine scrape of CC downloads Just In Case, and reupload anything that was uploaded to sites that went down by people who did not maintain the sites regardless of permissions - sorted by site.

Then, things with no reupload policy listed at all should be uploaded, and site-maintaining authors who did not want their work reuploaded should have efforts made to contact them. If they can be contacted, ask them if it's OK to reupload only things that do not have a working download anywhere, including the Wayback Machine.


If they can't be contacted after an entire month of trying then their otherwise inaccessible stuff should be uploaded.

 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  4/29/2020

That sounds completely reasonable to me. We would just need the cooperation of Creatures Caves administrators to make changes to the site and allow such uploads.
 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  4/29/2020

That's why the wiki is a more natural home for this kind of project - there would be no major site alterations needed from the owners.

My TCR Norns
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  4/29/2020

Alright then, I'll pick a defunct site and start on its wiki page. When it's done, myself and other people who want to contribute will be able to use it as a template or a style guide to make all the website pages consistent.

Edit: Here is the first version of a site page update: https://creatures.wiki/Gaz%27s_Site

The previous version of the page can be seen here: https://creatures.wiki/index.php?title=Gaz%27s_Site&oldid=53062

Things that can still be downloaded from the archived site are marked with a tiny Wayback Machine logo, all of which have hovertext explaining what it signifies. We can't use colors for this because wiki links already change the color of the text, and I feel like using bold and strikethrough would interfere with readability while still requiring some kind of explanation that could not be put somewhere as convenient as hovertext. "Live" downloads are linked at the bottom of the page under External Links. I put them there because the breed/COB/etc. names link to their respective pages on the wiki while the Wayback Machine logo links to its own file page, and because a big chunk of the content from this site is in two packs instead of individual downloads, which would be a pain to indicate in-line without clogging the list with repetitive text. Other changes, like the addition of the site's banner, are just housekeeping that would not be the focus of this project.

So, how does this look? What do you think of the icons and the downloads being linked at the bottom of the page? Does anything else need to be added? Would this be a worthwhile effort?

 
FieryBirdyThing

FieryBirdyThing
United Kingdom  

 visit FieryBirdyThing's website: CeeGee Toons
  4/30/2020  1

That looks pretty understandable from what I can see, especially seeing it 'in action', as it were. The icons look neat and tidy.

As for having the downloads at the bottom of the page, all I can say is that it keeps the usual format of the Wiki articles in place. I'm not sure if I can say how effective it is from an outside perspective. Perhaps maybe adding either a Wayback icon there or just putting '(Wayback Machine)' after 'Archived downloads:', just to reiterate the point for those seeing it for the first time? But that may also be overkill, so I understand why not.

Overall, though, it seems OK. But then, I'm only a newbie here, myself, and can't really comment fully on these matters.


CeeGee Toons | Club Nintendo Archives
 
Malkin

Malkin
Australia  
Manager


 visit Malkin's website: Malkin's page at CWiki
  5/1/2020

There's something to be said for proactively saving stuff to the Internet Archives, too... Which can be done using the browser plugin.

My TCR Norns
 
EmrisKronos

EmrisKronos
United States  


  5/2/2020  5

yeah, unless there's strong legal or ethical reasons not to mirroring with credit and archives of lore, and useful tips and tricks for new users in multiple locations would probably be a good idea for ensuring the continuity of the Creatures Community.

if the original content creators have strong objections though it might be wise to make sure there's a way for them to ask for their content to be removed.

 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  5/3/2020  1

What even is the legal status of third-party Creatures content? In modern games mods usually technically belong to the original game developer, but Creatures is from a very different time, and Creatures Labs is obviously defunct. Furthermore, what was the legal status of Montu, Ostrova, and Norngarden 2, which used to only be available by purchase with actual money? There's nothing to gain from deliberately pissing people off about permissions, but at the same time I don't think the legal problems people in the Creatures community have always worried about have ever been real, especially given that no money is involved except in those three cases. It just feels very unlikely to me that anyone has a leg to stand on in a court of law.

FireyBirdyThing, the fact that you're new is what makes your input valuable. There's not much point in making all those changes if the end result only makes sense to people who already know what's going on.

I replaced the text before the links with "Direct links to archived downloads:" to make it clearer that the links lead directly to files, not to pages of the site. I originally thought it'd be a good idea to list live hosts in that area as well (ex. "also hosted on x site" ), but that's leading to the problem of clogging the page with extra text. If this wiki project goes forward, it would probably be a better idea to update individual COB, etc. pages with a list of hosts than to spam it on every site page. I would still like feedback on whether people think this is a useful thing to do in the name of archival or whether it'd just be a wiki cleanup project.

 
FlyingEttiNorn

FlyingEttiNorn
United States  


  5/3/2020  4

i've been in this fandom for almost 8 whole years now and honestly? the whole "paid content" situation has always been dealt with super awkwardly. i feel like archiving it unless the creators object to it is the best solution here. I don't think Gameware, or whoever owns the series now, even gives a hoot abt creatures anymore

and, i mean... with SeeU7, Mummy's Creatures, and Treesprite's Grove all going under within the last 5 years, we SERIOUSLY need to give all this lost content a home


etn eat dispenser
 
C-Rex
Lollipop Lord

C-Rex
United Kingdom  

 visit C-Rex's website: The Norn Nebula
  5/4/2020  6

I did actually reach out to Ali last year about the paid third-party metarooms, and he mentioned something about rehosting them for sale but donating the money towards charity. I've not heard anything since.

Personally I think it would be better just to give his blessing for then to be rehosted for free. Charity donation or not, is it really worth charging money for fan-made content for a game almost 20 years old?

 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  5/6/2020  1

Ali seems to have popped his head back in for a sec and then disappeared again. I guess it's still possible he's working on something, but I'm not as hopeful as I used to be.

It looks like people are already adopting the wiki changes I proposed and implemented on Gaz's Site. Thanks to ScoobyBandit and Verm for contributing to the project! But it looks like one of them already ran into a problem I (somehow) hadn't thought of at first: some of these sites used to have a lot of downloads. Dozens, even hundreds for the largest ones. The format used for Gaz's Site, and other similar pages with only a handful of things, will not work for sites like that for two reasons: listing all of their content will take up a huge amount of space, and linking every direct download at the end will take up another huge amount of space.

So here is a revised idea for how to deal with that: https://creatures.wiki/Iggdrasil:Catalog

I created a new page for a defunct site of the kind I'm talking about, Iggdrasil, called Iggdrasil:Catalog. Only a small section is done at the time of posting, but I think it's enough to demonstrate the formatting I came up with. The page is divided into the same sections the site is divided into. Each entry is given a short description, a link to the archived site page, and links to downloads, some of which are available through Wayback Machine and some of which are (somehow) still on the live web, even though the site pages are all down. Corrupt Wayback downloads are not included for obvious reasons. Wayback links are marked with the logo with alt text. On the main Iggdrasil page, I put a note at the end of the Summary of Content section: "See Iggdrasil's Catalog page for a full list of all content.", with an in-line link to the page.

It's not really necessary to create pages like this for sites like Gaz's Site, but right now I don't know where the cutoff should be. The most important thing is to figure out right now is how to do this for sites that clearly DO have too many downloads to list on their main page. Does it look okay so far? Will it be too messy once everything is listed? Is sitename:Catalog a good name for this type of page? Do I need to complete more of it for you to form an opinion?

 
ylukyun
Patient Pirate

ylukyun

Manager



  5/6/2020  1

I like this page format. It could do with a little "this is a stub" type warning for lists like this that are very skeletal.
 
Linnet

Linnet
United States  

 visit Linnet's website: my neocities page
  5/8/2020  1

There's nothing wrong with the content, but I wonder if it's necessary to split it into another page. Would it make sense for this same content to exist under a site's page, split into C1 Downloads, C2 Downloads, and C3/DS Downloads as applicable? I don't think it's bad for a single page to include a large amount of content, as long as it's properly categorized and a table of contents is included. So I don't think this is *bad*, but I don't think it's necessary. I'd personally prefer to see this just folded into existing site pages since it seems like it'd be simpler.

That might also encourage stronger subsections for website wiki pages in general: the current "summary of content" section is useful as a summary, but sometimes it's all that's included, when an additional subsection for some of that content would be appropriate.

My attention span for the wiki tends to be pretty low, but I did go through at one point and make a very limited start on a more standardized format for important details for creatures breeds (see https://creatures.wiki/Bengal_Norn). Maybe we could apply something similar for COB/agent pages and include sections for download links? I've edited the Cupid's Lyre page (https://creatures.wiki/Cupid%27s_Lyre) with an example of the kind of table that could be used- I haven't edited the rest of the page for now, although it needs some cleanup, since this is a test case.

 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  5/8/2020  1

Thanks for the detailed response.

The agent table looks really good! I definitely prefer that to the formatting on the page I made. It would require going through all of these things and adding pages for everything that doesn't have one already, but that's not a problem per se, just another step in the process. It also means there's no need to have descriptions next to things explaining what they are, so the list of all content on a site would just be a clean list of links.

I updated the Iggdrasil page with a multi-column list of links: https://creatures.wiki/Iggdrasil
and created a page for the first COB in the style of the Cupid's Lyre page you updated: https://creatures.wiki/Apple_in_a_Sweet_Glaze

There's a lot of whitespace with only two columns, so if this goes forward I'll increase it to three or four. This can also be adjusted per section depending on how much space the names of things need to be displayed on a single line.

This feels like the right way to do things. I was never very enthusiastic about the catalog page, but it was all I could think of at the time. What does everyone else think?

 
Linnet

Linnet
United States  

 visit Linnet's website: my neocities page
  5/8/2020  1

The multi-column list looks like a great solution to me! Yeah, this will require adding pages for the individual items, but I think that would be best practice anyway.

I do think it'll break a bit for downloads of individual creatures, but I think that might be okay? It's probably more appropriate to keep that to a summary rather than individual pages, since individual creature downloads tend to be less notable. If there's a download for an individual creature that was more notable for some reason (https://creatures.wiki/Category:Named_creatures includes a few notable in-game creatures) then an individual page would make sense, but a lot of creature downloads tend more towards "this is Grog, he's purple and stupid and I love him".

edit: I've made edits to https://creatures.wiki/Creatures_Jungle to add a downloads section with subcategories, and introduced a table for common site info in the same vein as the COB/agent one and the breed one.

 
Lacota

Lacota



  5/9/2020

We've lost a lot of sites recently, relying on the wayback machine to back them up isn't a sure thing either. dynamic sites that use PHP very rarely make the transition. While wayback is great in theory, it's never been very reliable for actually backing up downloads.
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  5/9/2020

Yeah, I encountered that problem on Iggdrasil. The section of the site with genetic breeds also has some collections of norns that don't have any particularly special traits, they're just all together because they're green. I hate the IDEA of excluding things based on notability, but the reality of it is that regular norns #10000-10100 aren't worth the extra effort to include on a site's wiki page.

The Creatures Jungle page looks good. I'd like to get some final thoughts from people before moving forward. What's the most active and/or relevant of the Discord channels?

EDIT: Lacota posted while I was making my post, lol.

Wayback Machine isn't a perfect solution or really any kind of "solution" at all, just a hit-or-miss safety net, but it's been around for a long time and isn't in any danger at the moment. This wiki project will bring more attention to files that were successfully archived and are available, at least for the time being, through site backups on there, making it more likely that people will have local copies if archive.org ever goes down. Anyone who participates will end up with local copies just from the process of going through checking links. There has also been the unexpected discovery with Iggdrasil that, while the site pages are all down, somehow the downloads from the oldest iteration of the site still work as long as you have direct links, which can be found by browsing snapshots of the site on Wayback Machine. It might be a ray of hope for things previously thought lost for good if other hosting sites work this way, and I don't think it would have been discovered if I hadn't started this project.

There's still the problem of the need to reupload without express permission, and while it's possible to find new things from authors who are generally accepted as being okay with reposts (see: my recent uploads from Flib dat!, adding on to ones already on CC from 2013), I'm not under the illusion that the wiki project is a solution to that problem. This is just another thing I feel needs to be done, given the situation we're in.

 
kirtai

kirtai



  5/11/2020  1

I've seen this crisis happen in several modding communities and as a result my personal view is that anything that isn't archived in multiple places will be lost forever.
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  5/12/2020  1

The Creatures community is very old and holds some very outdated views, outdated since the turn of the millennium. Instances of people going against what has always been, at the very least, a loud minority opinion have been happening only quietly. For example, Muppetboy's Geatville hosts a fat chunk of all the C1 content ever made, much of which still has readme.txts last edited in the late 90s saying "do not repost" and even "if I'm gone then too bad"(!), but to my knowledge no-one has ever gotten on his case about it. It's not an obscure site, Muppetboy isn't a low-profile person, and the site can't be said not to advertise its wares.

At the risk of being inflammatory, I think part of that is because the kind of people who are still strongly against reuploading without explicit permission are also the kind of people who don't archive things personally; they haven't seen those text files because they haven't downloaded them, because despite decades of major sites going down they still implicitly trust these single people to keep their sites up and running indefinitely, and feel no personal responsibility (in this tiny community) to be the person who still has the files after the site goes down. The people who have spoken up against efforts like one I'm trying to start in the past have never mentioned any plans of their own or provided alternatives to the people trying to do something, and were only sometimes content creators concerned about maintaining control over their own things... most of whom have, ironically, disappeared by now themselves. The pushback has always been from people with more opinions than sense or desire to contribute.

At some point there has to be a realization that, when it comes to efforts like Muppetboy's, no matter how much the people who are against it want to talk, they can't actually do anything to stop it. No-one is holding onto secret active email addresses they can use to contact people who have been MIA since 2001, or has a team of lawyers on hand willing to entertain hundreds of dubious IP cases with absolutely no money involved. Some web hosting services might care enough to intervene, but there are many others who would not. The only pull someone could have is regarding things they personally made.

There doesn't actually need to be a community consensus about what to do. There doesn't even need to be majority support. I'm trying to garner that because I grew up with these games, and this community, and I care deeply about them even when my views or tone of voice spark backlash. I would very much like to change the long-standing cultural problem where too many people effectively 1. don't think any kind of preservation measures need to be made, 2. actively oppose such things, or 3. don't really care, but I'm also very much frustrated and tired, and if someone shows up someday with some big project they've been working on in secret, they will have my full support regardless of (voiced) community response.

So, with all of that said... how does the wiki look? Should formatting on the current Iggdrasil page be the "release version"? The Wayback Machine, like every other site, shouldn't be treated like it's forever, but for now it's there and it's a gold mine, and it's hard for people to contribute by keeping local copies of things if the only way to know what's out there to save is to go and find it in the depths of digitally half-remembered Web 1.0.

 
FieryBirdyThing

FieryBirdyThing
United Kingdom  

 visit FieryBirdyThing's website: CeeGee Toons
  5/12/2020

BlocklockCity wrote:
So, with all of that said... how does the wiki look? Should formatting on the current Iggdrasil page be the "release version"?


Apologies, since I don't quite know what you mean when referring to a 'release version'.

However, regarding the formatting on the Wiki pages for these sites, I do like what Linnet did with the Creatures Jungle page. The box for basic site info looks tidier than listing it in the main info text.

I also like how the list of downloads is in a section marked as such, compared with Iggdrasil's lists that all seem to have their own section. It keeps the downloads in one place, I reckon.

Again, I apologise if my answers are bit lean or lacking in knowledge.


CeeGee Toons | Club Nintendo Archives
 
kirtai

kirtai



  5/12/2020  1

I've gotten the impression that people sometimes confuse "their work being on other sites" with "not getting credit for their work". Sadly, this is understandable, since a lot of places have provided downloads without credit, or reused work without credit, or even given the impression that the work is their own. (I'm speaking about modding communities in general here, not the CC specifically)

I personally feel that archiving stuff is okay so long as you clearly credit the creators. Credit/attribution is the most important thing here.

 
Mioonktoo

Mioonktoo
United States  

 visit Mioonktoo's website: Creatures From Lurkspace
  5/12/2020  1

At this point, and I should update my readme files with it at some point, I say go ham and archive my work, what little of it there is. Just don't make other people pay for it and cram the zip files full of malware and we're all good. Although I imagine since what few of us there are aren't that malicious so that possibility shouldn't be an issue. In fact, aside from misattribution, that's the only other (more sensible) reason why I'd see there still being a pushback on the subject of archiving.

Although those problems would easily be solved by issuing warnings about the sites that do that and promoting the more reliable download sources. /shrug


From the depths of Deep Lurkspace I emerge... And suddenly can't remember what it is I came up for.
 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  5/12/2020

FieryBirdyThing, I mean if it should be the version of the page used as a template for other pages going forward. So far it's all been trying to figure out what looks good and gets the job done best.

kirtai and Mioonktoo, I'd definitely understand that point of view. It's easy to get why someone wouldn't want their stuff on the equivalent of the sketchy repost sites the Minecraft modding community deals with, even if credit is given. I think it comes down to trust: there's never been a case of a site like that in the CC as far as I know, and like C-Rex said further up, there really just isn't any money in any of this. Creatures Caves is the de facto community hub and it doesn't run ads. You can buy the entire main series on GoG for 12 dollars, or even less if you wait for a sale. Even if someone wanted to pack a bunch of stuff together with malware and try to sell it, who on earth could they target? Creatures hasn't attracted the kind of audience that's easy or lucrative to try and scam, the way Minecraft does with its large younger player base. It hasn't attracted much of an audience at all in recent years... we're mostly old blood. The people who are active now are generally people who have been active for a long time. It's hard for me to imagine there being issues of trust, honestly, but all that means is that I don't have them, not that no-one else does.

 
kirtai

kirtai



  5/13/2020

I think of the malware thing as using their work as bait in a trap, not archiving, hence my views.

It's a pity that the creative commons licences aren't more commonly accepted since they do have provisions for all of this.

Edit: Just to be clear, I just don't want to see yet another absolutely disastrous loss of work and history in this community that I've seen in others.

 
Jabber

Jabber
United States  


  5/15/2020

I went ahead and updated Gaz's Site to the new page format arrived at by me and Linnet: https://creatures.wiki/Gaz%27s_Site The next step will be to make it so none of those links are red and update existing pages to use Linnet's nice-looking tables.

Using columned lists is harder to read instead of easier if there's only a few items in the list... right now I think a good minimum number is 5.

 
Loke

Loke
United States  


  5/24/2020

I'm not a terribly active user, and haven't even played Creatures lately since my computer went down last year, but I love this game and have really enjoyed all the content people made over the decades. I was just clicking around the wiki and found the way back links comprehensible, for what it's worth. I'm happy to see this effort going on.
 
bedalton

bedalton



  7/3/2020

** Removed**
 
C-Rex
Lollipop Lord

C-Rex
United Kingdom  

 visit C-Rex's website: The Norn Nebula
  7/3/2020

I'm curious about what the ***removed*** was.
 
Lacota

Lacota



  7/3/2020  1

I'll say it time and time again. Relying on the wayback is nearly as bad as letting it rot. We've lost so much already. Having it in more than one place is a far better alternative.
 


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Jabber
creatures caves is your #1 resource for the creatures artificial life game series: creatures, creatures 2, creatures 3, docking station, and the upcoming creatures family.

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