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Wolfling Runs C3/DS and new genomes   
Liil

Liil
Germany  


  10/29/2021

Some years ago someone posted in another forum a statistical analysis of different genomes in wolfling runs how good they survived.

The result was that the buggy standard genome from Creature Labs got the highest efficiency in survival, while modern genomes with more brain functions and fixed lobes got more bad results.
I also noticed same in my last wolfling runs and ended up with total extinction if I use TWB, Evo or CFF.

It seems that the norns got extinct because of “social problems”, because they died in their groups and did not produced enough offspring. They focused on conversations about their needs and like/dislike of other norns.

Another strange behavior of CFF I noticed was that they lack the ability to cross larger areas without objects, they walked left, right, left, right without crossing the area but hanging in between forever.

Anyone noticed the same?

 
SpaceShipRat

SpaceShipRat



  10/29/2021

Many modern genomes also go for "realism" and tend to slow down breeding, maybe add metabolical costs to pregnancy and such. The original genomes do remain better for sustaining a population, but I wonder what the result would be if one tried to compare single norns' ability to survive. For example, running the same wolfling runs but comparing how many norns died befor they hit two hours of age.
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  10/29/2021  2

One of the earliest things to be fixed about the vanilla genomes is their ability to "cheat" by mutating certain genes to produce nutrients and energy out of nothing. It may be that they are surviving, but they aren't surviving "fairly".

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Liil

Liil



  11/18/2021  1

I did many other runs in the last days and some problems problems occurred.

The Metraroom I am using is one of my own ones I made 2013: https://bilderupload.org/bild/ba9f62583-frorestterra2

The only danger is drowning when creatures passing the middle of the map, but they can prevents this by using teleporters and lifts. The nutrition is provided by Garden Box patch plants and vendors. The fix for the talking loop is installed.

Creature Labs Norns: Too many eggs, they survive good and eat much, even if they don’t need to eat, travel a lot but also like to cluster. They can establish new territories. They don’t get extinct.

CFE: They lay too much eggs. They eat normal and not too much. They do not form dense clusters, stay near each other, but don’t get to travel much to establish a new territory. They spread very slow on the map.
They don’t get extinct.

CFF 2017: They don’t lay much eggs, not enough to survive. They sometimes travel and can establish new groups in foreign territory. But they “forget” to eat and breed, because they get trapped in discussions about their needs, suggestions and talks about like and dislike other norns. Extinct after generation 8.

Evo Norns: Laid 1 egg. Are not able to find food, because they don’t travel much. They build clusters and do not leave them. Their life force does not build up strong on the health indicator (Only 2 bars) All died out.

TWB: They mated and laid eggs, enough to establish a population, but they where first and only ones that died often because of drowning. They do not travel often but they do. After all they don’t die out and I think that they are the best of the modern ones this days.

There are also different intentions in people that play Creatures. The modern genomes have deactivated gait and pose gene mutations. This doesn't make sense in an evolutionary perspective, because a mutation in those genes can lead to a better survival, even if not often. For example a mutation that slows down walking and running ability can prevent norns from running away from overcrowding and then getting starved, because they move away from food sources that are used by many other norns and are the only ones near.
Blocking mutations in genes for aging makes it impossible for norns to become fast agers or live very long or very short, another thing that is possible in real world organisms.
No possibility of mutations in genes for food metabolism makes them not able to adapt to new food sources or focusing on one kind of nutrient of the three ones. They also cannot evolve to get nutrients from light, heat or flower smell for example.

On the other hand mutations in gait and pose genes will create ugly acting norns that don’t seem to move and pose any more like the animals we know. But this will not be selected out, if it is not a disadvantage. After many generations the norn will just act freaky all the time.

I remember strange walking high generation norns from the warp, that moved much more slow then the generation 1 ones, but had many other mutations that made them robust and able to survive.

For someone who wants to play creatures as a pet game with a few norns like in the good old days of Creatures 1, the modern genomes Norns may be the best choice.
When someone is interested in using Creatures as an evolution simulation, Creature Labs Norns may be the better choice, or unlocking the mutations for the blocked genes in the TWB norns.

Another thing I noticed with all norns is that they do not often and not intelligent use doors, lifts and portals. This is a big problem, because the world is 2D and stacked, but many rooms will not be used, because the norns will never reach them. When someone is playing with their norns this is not a problem, because the person will push the teleporters and lifts or command the norns to do, but if they are on their own, they get stuck in a room for ever.
For a wolfling run a flat but long world with islands and without underground and treehouses would be better. The problem of C3/DS is that it is no more an endless scrolling world. The norns will at one point cluster at the 2 ends of the world/metarooms.

Another thing that is important for wolfling runs with plants that can reproduce is that the map needs a pond or other deep laying water source to prevent plants from overgrowing the whole metaroom. The seeds fall into the water and disappear, this is very good to prevent the slowing of the game because of too many objects.

I wonder what would happen, if the ends of a large metaroom will be filled with water. Will the norns survive and stay on a big island, or will their desire to travel to the end of the world kill them?

Maybe I will test this in the near future.

 
FlyingEttiNorn

FlyingEttiNorn



  11/18/2021

Care to provide a download for the metaroom? it's beautiful!
From my experience creatures will only "properly" use elevators (not pushing it repeatedly until they are satisfied, etc)
Creatures have no concept of "if you're drowning then get out of the water" because they can't identify room types, so having water on the sides might result in them drowning while trying to escape from each other. Or they could actually establish colonies on higher levels of the room (CFF norns have instincts to go up when drowning) it'd be interesting to see

 
Liil

Liil



  11/19/2021  2

I don’t know if this is legal. The room is created with 3D images from the internet, on which I have no copyright. May someone of the moderators of this site can make a statement. I will upload it, if they think it is okay.

I'm planning to create a new metaroom in the near future, based on a 3D program I bought on steam that allows to use the pictures and models for free and commercial use. It is also a landscape editor and called flowscape.

I also created a metaroom last year for the CCSF, but sadly nobody that can code is interested in it anymore:

https://github.com/Skandarella/Albia-Lost-Places-Metaroom

Everybody who wants to can use the sprites I uploaded and create agents.

 
Vermidia

Vermidia



  11/23/2021

For mutations, honestly using c2 or c1 would allow you alot more freedom. Due to the engine, you can only get small changes(Not counting cutting and duplicating), and not much else. Nothing can mutate into lactate, but that lactate can only mutate back into nothing and vise-versa. Gene's "Codons" can really only change by 1 bit.

You know...wait...nevermind... wait...no...umm...maybe later...
 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  11/24/2021

Liil wrote:
No possibility of mutations in genes for food metabolism makes them not able to adapt to new food sources or focusing on one kind of nutrient of the three ones. They also cannot evolve to get nutrients from light, heat or flower smell for example.


Only the pathways responsible for converting nutrients into different forms and turning them into energy are disabled from mutating. Instincts, stimuli and other reactions and emitters can still mutate, so you can still get creatures adapting to different food sources.


Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
Liil

Liil



  11/27/2021

Vermidia wrote:
For mutations, honestly using c2 or c1 would allow you alot more freedom. Due to the engine, you can only get small changes(Not counting cutting and duplicating), and not much else. Nothing can mutate into lactate, but that lactate can only mutate back into nothing and vise-versa. Gene's "Codons" can really only change by 1 bit.



An interesting topic. I opened a C2 genetic file in the Genetics Kit but I couldn’t see much difference. They also have a mutation rate like in C3/DS. What exactly is this engine difference between the games and mutations?

 
Vermidia

Vermidia



  11/27/2021

It's how the engine handles mutations basically. In C3/DS there's a parent degree system that's supposed to influence how severe a mutation can be, but do to how it's coded it's always treated as zero. And due to the math even if it would be it'd always be pretty low. When the mask generated is 0, it turns to 1 instead so there's still a mutation. This mask is bitwise XORed with the genes codon, causing mutation.

C2 and C1 I'm pretty sure just generate a random bitmask and put it over a codon or something similiar to that.


You know...wait...nevermind... wait...no...umm...maybe later...
 
Pulppu

Pulppu



  12/12/2021

I came here to post about this very thing. I've been trying the 2017 CFF genomes and left alone the creatures never even reach old age. Not even when I edit them to be immune to all bacteria and physical harm. They starve when being surrounded by food or are asphyxiated somehow (according to the autopsy tool).

Which is sad of course. There's incredible amount of good work that have been done on these genomes, we are just still missing something.

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  12/13/2021  1

Starving while being surrounded by food in 2017 breeds is probably due to their cropped feeding instincts. Most creatures will know to eat at least two different kinds of food for their nutrient needs - for example, seeds and fruit for starch hunger - but 2017s will only naturally think to eat seeds for that. Asphyxiation is a bit more puzzling though.

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 
evolnemesis
Code Monkey

evolnemesis



  12/14/2021

Dragoler wrote:
Starving while being surrounded by food in 2017 breeds is probably due to their cropped feeding instincts. Most creatures will know to eat at least two different kinds of food for their nutrient needs - for example, seeds and fruit for starch hunger - but 2017s will only naturally think to eat seeds for that. Asphyxiation is a bit more puzzling though.



Huh, I missed that when I was editing their genomes. Maybe I replaced some genes with some instincts to mess with other 'natural' stuff, but I don't recall, I didn't think I took away any feeding instincts. I thought I mostly went off the CFE and base genomes for each breed and tried to avoid messing with most instincts except for in the Evos. They do have the 'fullness' lobe that suppresses eating urges when they aren't hungry to stop them from overeating, but that shouldn't stop them from eating when they are hungry. It could be the liver problem they had, ultimately, it stops them from storing glycogen correctly unless they are constantly drinking alcohol.


"For small creatures such as we, the vastness is bearable only through love."
"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." - Carl Sagan

 
Dragoler
Wrong Banshee

Dragoler


 visit Dragoler's website: TWB Development Thread
  12/15/2021

Oh, I wasn't aware that you released a 2017 version of the CFFs because when I see 2017 I think of these which have the hunger instinct changes.

Creator of the TWB/TCB genome base.

 


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