creatures caves welcome, guest
downloads   gallery   dev   community   creatchi   forum   mycaves
bookmarks | search | post new topic
General Forum
old
A Creatures dream I just had   
DilonShuniikke

DilonShuniikke
United States  


  6/10/2017  5

Originally a bibble, but quickly realized it would be a bit longer than that!
Also, I wasn't sure if this went in general or strangeo. Decided on general since it is creatures related. Let me know if this is the wrong spot!

I just woke up from an interesting dream.

I had done an experiment where I hatched 20 Siamese Norns, ten males and ten females, with the intention of breeding for appearance mutations. After using CAOS commands to teach them handish, they quickly fell into their typical "name like/dislike name" loop. Eventually some Norns snapped out of it, realized everyone around them was being loud, and almost immediately started complaining of crowdedness.

Normal so far. Nothing a norn wouldn't actually do. Nornmal, if you can forgive my pun.

Once they started complaining, I began to move them farther apart in hopes that this would both break up the loop and also alleviate their crowdedness so these poor Norns could start to calm down. Then, one of them said something that surprised me.

"Norn very similar". This confused me. Even in the dream, I was pretty sure "similar" wasn't any sort of drive, or word connected to any drive. I was pretty sure it wasn't a handish word whatsoever.

Still, every so often, someone would repeat it. "Norn very similar". Eventually it became "Norn extremely similar" and "Norn intensely similar".

Eventually I realized... These Norns were commenting on how everyone looked the same! With 20 first generation Norns, all the same breed, it would definitely be visually monotonous. But I would never expect a Norn to comment on it, much less complain about it!

The Norns got gradually more and more uncomfortable with their similarities until they started attacking each other. Eventually I felt bad for them and deleted the world. It was around this point I woke up and realized how odd the whole dream was.

I almost feel like I unintentionally wrote a parable. :)


Flib dis
 
Intyalle

Intyalle


 visit Intyalle's website: Nadia Eat Hand
  6/10/2017  1

That's pretty cool

Also known as bab_5_freak from the old Gameware forums.
 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  6/10/2017  1

That's hilarious but also very interesting. Right now Norns/Grendels/Ettins can't actually see each other at all. Their vision is extremely simple by our standards, and it's highly debatable whether they experience the qualia/sensation we call 'sight' at all, or anything analogous to it. Instead they have a range of perception which seems to be about 500 pixels to the left and right (unknown how far they can 'see' up or down, but from gameplay experience it seems to be the same range, since they can rise up or drop down to find food and I've seen them moving their heads to track moving things they're looking at when the thing goes up or down.)

Within that range, they can actively pay attention to one thing at a time, with the unconscious parts of their brain generating this by comparing how stimulating various nearby objects are with the Creature's current drives. So they have an unconscious or at best semi-conscious awareness of all the things within that 500-pixel range and a conscious awareness (such as anything is conscious for Creatures) of one thing at a time.

They are set up to distinguish individual Norns from each other on the basis of name and behavior ('I kisspop with Mary. Kisspopping is fun. So I like Mary a little more. I kisspop with Mary again. I like her more. Now I love Mary.' 'Sam hit me. Being hit hurts. I dislike Sam.' Basically is how this forms.) They can sense whether other Creatures are their own species or not, whether they are the same sex or not, and, if the appropriate genes/etc. are set up to make use of the ability, they can distinguish their own parents, siblings, and children (though Gen1s see each other as siblings, which can be problematic if you want to use these genes to discourage inbreeding).

But they can't perceive what sprites they have themselves, much less what other Creatures are using. They also can't perceive their own or others' color genes. Those are entirely for the benefit of Hands (players). So they have no awareness of the fact that 'looking similar' or 'not looking similar' is a thing, much less to have a preference about it. And as far as I'm aware, it's not possible to edit the genome to make that happen, either. I might be wrong tho'.

Still, it's too bad, because it would be very interesting to simply give them the ability to detect what sprites and colors other Creatures have and see what happens, if they develop any distinctions or preferences. We could even do things like make intentionally racist or 'colorblind' or diversity-celebrating genomes.

I did play a much simpler Alife game once, a couple years ago, where the organisms were able to detect each others' body plans and colors and compare those to their own. The player was able to make them either seek out similarity or difference or ignore that metric altogether. (There were other things you could use to guide the organisms' behavior.) It would definitely be interesting, from a realism/consciousness perspective, to give Creatures the same ability, if it were possible.


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
ylukyun
Patient Pirate

ylukyun

Manager



  6/11/2017

Lurhstaap wrote:
I did play a much simpler Alife game once, a couple years ago, where the organisms were able to detect each others' body plans and colors and compare those to their own. The player was able to make them either seek out similarity or difference or ignore that metric altogether. (There were other things you could use to guide the organisms' behavior.) It would definitely be interesting, from a realism/consciousness perspective, to give Creatures the same ability, if it were possible.



Would you happen to remember the name of this game?

 
Felix

Felix



  6/12/2017  1

Very interesting dream and interesting info from Lurhstaap too! I'm not sure about making norns "racially aware," as that runs a risk of becoming offensive to real life people, even if it were implemented with care.

But the whole thing does make me think about animals and their colours/patterns and how and why those evolved. For example, colourful birds that put on displays to woo a mate. It would be awesome if norns could do something like that - maybe puff up their fur, preen themselves, or even ask the user to give them a bath!
"Timmy bathe"
"Why?"
"Timmy love Mary"

Or how about animals that use their colours to blend into their surroundings and escape danger? Imagine if we had dangerous beasts that like to attack norns.... but they can't see a green norn if it hides amongst the grass and trees, so those norns survive longer, thereby affecting how colour evolves over the generations.

Would be interesting to see how something like that would work out :)

 
Freylaverse
toxic biohazard

Freylaverse

Moderator



  6/12/2017

That's actually really interesting!! You know, I once had a dream that Steve Grand was writing a book about the struggles of trying to design a norn who could play tennis.

Science is a beautiful gift to humanity; We should not distort it.
 
Lurhstaap

Lurhstaap


 visit Lurhstaap's website: Addicted To CAOS
  6/12/2017  1

I want to say it was called something involving the word Pond? Pond Life? Life in a Pond? I don't know. I'll have to try to find it. It was pretty cool, even if very simple compared to Creatures, and it did have, as I mentioned, some features that I wish Creatures had.

And by 'racist' I didn't mean White Power Norns, or anything that would uncomfortably reflect real-life issues. I meant more something along the lines of how Hardmans hate Grendels, but more realistically handled than how Hardmans are. Say, maybe Siamese Norns consider their own breed the most attractive, and Draconian sprites to be ugly, so they'd be more prone to interact positively with their own breed and negatively with those using Draconian sprites, just as a random example. It's simply a scale of being attracted to those most like oneself and put off by those too much different from yourself.

And yes, I realize that in itself may make some people uncomfortable. But my goal is realism and there are many aspects of reality that are uncomfortable. I still want to try to model and study them because they are part of reality. I fully respect that others may not want to go as far as I do, though, and would not expect anyone to follow in my footsteps just because I'm doing that kind of work myself. :p


Conclude with killer catchphrase.
(Lurhstaap)
"This is not knowledge -
this is information!"
New Model Army, "Courage"

 
the1whoscreams

the1whoscreams



  6/12/2017

That game sounds like Darwin Pond.
 
Felix

Felix



  6/13/2017

Oh yeah, I didn't think you were advocating anything horrific like that! (Apologies if it came off that way!) I was more thinking that in such a customizable game as Creatures, it can easily go too far despite everyone's best intentions. The way you've put it makes sense I think, if no particular breed has any advantage over the others.

My norns right now are "intensely similar," nearly every face type that isn't civit has died out... fallows hanging on by the skin of their teeth!

 


downloads
cobs
adoptions
creaturelink
metarooms
breeds
 
gallery
art
wallpaper
screenshots
graphics
promos
sprites
dev
hack shack
script reservations
dev resources
active projects
dev forum
 
community
links
advice
chat
polls
resources
creatchi
 
forum
bookmarks
general
news
help
development
strangeo
survivor
mycaves
log in
register
lost pw
0 online
creatures caves is your #1 resource for the creatures artificial life game series: creatures, creatures 2, creatures 3, docking station, and the upcoming creatures family.

contact    help    privacy policy    terms & conditions    rules    donate    wiki